World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Why so much focus on resilience?

Atehrani

< Radiance of Shadow >

Cenarion Circle

0. Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:11:48 AM PST

I completely understand the hesitation on your part on tweaking classes for fear of affecting them in the long run. However the plan of "wait and see how things turn out with more resilience" does not bring confidence to the players that things will improve.

If resilience is such a large factor on "balancing" PvP now these days why not just make a aura in the areans/BGs that gives +resilience?

The simple fact is with my S5 gear I cannot compete in Areans or BGs effectively against players with PvE gear.

Honestly right now, PvP is a mess and I just want some reassurance that things will improve (sooner than later), are there numbers that you can give us with different resilience ratings? Otherwise I'll just re-spec into TG and forget about PvP. At this point PvP is no longer fun and I cannot see myself enduring this for one or more seasons.

[ Post edited by Nethaera ]

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

1. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:28:08 AM PST

I don't think I have ever said "wait and see" though it gets quoted a lot, so maybe I did. I have always said that everyone pretty much agrees that resilience will make things better and the question is by how much.

Resilience is our primary reward for PvP gear. It is what keeps PvP gear from being uber in PvP gear and also discourages players from using PvE gear to PvP (more on this in a sec). Part of the Arena design is basically that if you win it gives you access to gear that lets you win more (that is actually the PvE design too if you think about it). If we give away resilience too readily, then the Arena rewards don't feel as valuable.

We know a lot of players are wearing PvE gear right now in Arenas. That is happening for a couple of reasons:

First, they have that gear. We made the early raiding content very approachable, but we also gave players access to it long before the Arena season started. In early BC it felt like the PvP epic gear was far easier to get than the PvE epic gear, which sent a strange message to a lot of players from which not all have recovered. So in that respect it is nice to be able to say again that PvE is a valid path to epic gear. Unfortunately, we probably went too extreme in the other direction and now the "welfare epics" are from Naxx. (I also want to add that badges and Archavon are great sources for PvP gear without you having to PvP, and Strand and Wintergrasp give a lot of honor if you want to PvP but don't want to Arena. There is also a lot of good starter PvP gear out there but it is blue and some players hate the thought of taking off their purple gear from a few seasons ago. But I digress.)

Second, when nobody has resilience gear, it allows for a strategy where you can just burst players down in a couple of GCDs. Since the attacks never take much damage, resilience isn't highly valued. What will happen is that once some players start to get resilience, everyone will have to. Once the healer (to use an example) can't be destryoed in a couple of GCDs, the attackers are in a very weak position from the rest of the healer's team. It's an arms race in essence. Once one person putson their survival gear, everyone has to.

Now I do realize in the past this wasn't true of every spec, especially rogues, though we've tried to avoid that problem this time. I also realize that some players think they die too easily without resilience or will die too easily even with resilience. I'm not trying to wave away all of that feedback. The question was whether resilience was valuable (or perhaps even too valued) in PvP.

Mumford

Burning Blade

3. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:30:39 AM PST

The only problem is some classes survive better with out resil than others with 1000 resil.

Take for example a dk. They can walk around full pve gear... no resil and still live longer than say a shaman with 1000 resil.

[ Post edited by Mumford ]

Aleghra

< Represent >

Uther

4. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:35:53 AM PST

Well I can understand your take on resilience, but to be honest I don't think the stat does enough to warrant its existence atm. In BC it was great because burst wasn't that high so damage being lowered by 20%+ was great. Now lowering a 10k crit by 20% doesn't do much. Plus in wotlk, there are so many new ways to stun, silence and control your character even more. I think resilience would be much more valuable if it lowered CC duration or something else.

Also, with the way the game is moving. It seems like its taking the path of Guild Wars. Where pvp and pve were very much separate aspects of the game. Eventually in GW skills had a different pve and pvp function. For example, in pve divine storm does holy damage. But in a pvp zone it would do instant weapon damage. Has Blizzard ever considered giving skills two distinct functions? One for pvp and one for pve? Or would this cause even more problems?

Arazona

Shattered Hand

5. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:36:49 AM PST

My main problem is the incentive for every class to wear PvP gear just isn't there. Some classes have the talents/abilities to make that happen. From a Priest perspective, we need it just to step in there. You won't find a high rated Priest wearing 300-400, or even 500 Resilience for that matter. They are all 700+ for the most part, maybe a mid 600s at the worst. A lot of the damage dealers aren't having to do that at all by any means.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Black+Dragonflight&n=Audrie

Ashrial

Shattered Hand

6. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:37:15 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Resilience is our primary reward for PvP gear. It is what keeps PvP gear from being uber in PvP gear and also discourages players from using PvE gear to PvP (more on this in a sec). Part of the Arena design is basically that if you win it gives you access to gear that lets you win more (that is actually the PvE design too if you think about it). If we give away resilience too readily, then the Arena rewards don't feel as valuable.

This is really a flawed approach though. It's basically making the rich richer, and the poor poorer. Everyone needs to be on equal footing in arena if you ever want it to be truly competitive and taken seriously.

The reward for pvp should not be more dominance over lesser geared players. The rewards above the first set should be purely cosmetic and the first set should be the absolute best PvP gear you can get and not require any ratings.

Give it a 75% damage debuff if you try to kill a mob in it for all I care, but the armor needs to be the best PvP gear there is and accessible to all who PvP.

[ Post edited by Ashrial ]

Maximusrex

< Little Urban Elites >

Draenor

7. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:39:56 AM PST

You do realize that making certain segments of the game to dependent on loot made for that portion of the game is a road block for players who are more serious about one side and more casual toward the other from making that cross over, cause the few times they do cross over they will be so over matched that the experience with be a un-fun deterent to doing so again.

In Classic the issue was PvPers had no option but to PvE or get rolled, or give up months of their lives to grind for PvP gear.

BC closed the gap some and you could kinda PvP decently in PvE gear and PvE decently in PvP gear.

Wrath has blown the gap wide open, and is closing the door on casual cross-over play.

It's the end of the World of Warcraft as we know it, and I feel fine!

Gravemind

< Just Wipe It >

Blackrock

8. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:41:26 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I don't think I have ever said "wait and see" though it gets quoted a lot, so maybe I did. I have always said that everyone pretty much agrees that resilience will make things better and the question is by how much.

Resilience is our primary reward for PvP gear. It is what keeps PvP gear from being uber in PvP gear and also discourages players from using PvE gear to PvP (more on this in a sec). Part of the Arena design is basically that if you win it gives you access to gear that lets you win more (that is actually the PvE design too if you think about it). If we give away resilience too readily, then the Arena rewards don't feel as valuable.

We know a lot of players are wearing PvE gear right now in Arenas. That is happening for a couple of reasons:

First, they have that gear. We made the early raiding content very approachable, but we also gave players access to it long before the Arena season started. In early BC it felt like the PvP epic gear was far easier to get than the PvE epic gear, which sent a strange message to a lot of players from which not all have recovered. So in that respect it is nice to be able to say again that PvE is a valid path to epic gear. Unfortunately, we probably went too extreme in the other direction and now the "welfare epics" are from Naxx. (I also want to add that badges and Archavon are great sources for PvP gear without you having to PvP, and Strand and Wintergrasp give a lot of honor if you want to PvP but don't want to Arena. There is also a lot of good starter PvP gear out there but it is blue and some players hate the thought of taking off their purple gear from a few seasons ago. But I digress.)

Second, when nobody has resilience gear, it allows for a strategy where you can just burst players down in a couple of GCDs. Since the attacks never take much damage, resilience isn't highly valued. What will happen is that once some players start to get resilience, everyone will have to. Once the healer (to use an example) can't be destryoed in a couple of GCDs, the attackers are in a very weak position from the rest of the healer's team. It's an arms race in essence. Once one person putson their survival gear, everyone has to.

Now I do realize in the past this wasn't true of every spec, especially rogues, though we've tried to avoid that problem this time. I also realize that some players think they die too easily without resilience or will die too easily even with resilience. I'm not trying to wave away all of that feedback. The question was whether resilience was valuable (or perhaps even too valued) in PvP.

'Game Theory' without the consideration of increasing resources ..

I hope your right.... soon

Edit: An Oligopoly would not be desirable in my case.(again)

[ Post edited by Gravemind ]

Sure, I will 'build a bridge'...... then I will live under it.

Schlager

< The Hellforged Union >

Eredar

9. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:41:27 AM PST

Whats going on with BGs pvp? Are you guys/gals still brainstorming on what to do,or is something on the table?

Occam's razor : "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one,"

Furys

< Sithicus Order >

Bronzebeard

10. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:46:09 AM PST

Q u o t e:

This is really a flawed approach though. It's basically making the rich richer, and the poor poorer. Everyone needs to be on equal footing in arena if you ever want it to be truly competitive and taken seriously.

The reward for pvp should not be more dominance over lesser geared players. The rewards above the first set should be purely cosmetic and the first set should be the absolute best PvP gear you can get and not require any ratings.

Give it a 75% damage debuff if you try to kill a mob in it for all I care, but the armor needs to be the best PvP gear there is and accessible to all who PvP.

wow this is so right on
why is this not obvious to devs?

Schlager

< The Hellforged Union >

Eredar

11. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:46:49 AM PST

Booo can't see my last post but it shows that I posted something, lets try this again.

BGs pvp, are you guys still brainstorming ideas for them,or do you have something in the works?

Occam's razor : "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one,"

Arazona

Shattered Hand

12. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:46:54 AM PST

Honestly, for those that had the time for the Vanilla WoW grind, it was the best part of my WoW career. Having the FM Gear, my crazy weapons, I could play any spec I want, and go in there and succeed. The main thing was I had a lot of HP.

One of the things I do not prefer is the PvP gear only having like say 30 (and sometimes even less) or so more Stamina on them.

I feel that you guys underestimate Stamina as well.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Black+Dragonflight&n=Audrie

Ashrial

Shattered Hand

13. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:46:58 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Whats going on with BGs pvp? Are you guys/gals still brainstorming on what to do,or is something on the table?

I'd like to hear more on the battleground ideas as well. I really feel that true PvP is a more dynamic environment than glorified dueling in a sandbox.

I wish you guys would add a true PvP zone open all day long with many different objectives to control. (towers, keeps, towns etc)

Rhisi

< INCINERATION >

Coilfang

15. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:50:53 AM PST

I also like to point the finger at raid gear having soo much stamina on it to. The fact that there is deadly gear in pve also makes me mad. I can't find 24 people to do the raid instance in wintersgrasp and my server is horrible to find consistent badge farmers on (by no means do I want to farm badges either.).

Also, the hit cap for mages in pvp is way too high because of racials and specs and this highly favors raid gear. My pvp crafted set has 2% Hit on it.. From my weapon and an enchant. Missing in pvp is huge. There should be no base chance to miss in pvp thats the first thing you can do to clean up raid gear in pvp a little.

Ashrial

Shattered Hand

16. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:51:20 AM PST

Q u o t e:
So your saying Resilience is pretty much working as intended minus a few anomalies? Anomalies being a couple of classes that need toning down

Wrong.

All damage is higher than it should be. There are no single classes to blame.

This is partially due to PvE gear having so much stamina, PvP gear not having enough stamina, the new budget on resilience making PvP gear not worth using, and the fact that you can pick up a set of nax epics easier than you can even get the blue PvP set that isn't even worth wearing.

Shinnok

< Illidown >

Illidan

17. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:51:40 AM PST

I think WotLK was rushed...

Just look at the mess that is PvP nowdays. The game is unplayable for every class but paladins/mages/rogues and DKs. More people are getting frustrated with each passing day and Blizzard doesnt seem to acknowedge the issue and talk with the community about it. All I see on this forums is question-dodging and semantics.

"We will see"
"Resilience will make things right"
"We are working on it"

Yeah right...look at the patch notes. Only the DKs got hit by the nerf stick, and it wasnt that big of a nerf to beging with. They got buffed and nerfed. Rogues got even more buff(LOL feint reduces AoE damage by 50%) and no single nerf whatsoever.

You do the math and calculate how many people are pissed. I for one hate PvP right now. I LOVED TBC PvP(be it world pvp, BGs or Arena). I was hoping to enjoy the game once I hit 80, but im not.

Graceland

< The Blood Legion >

Shandris

18. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:51:45 AM PST

Resil *was* valuable in S1-S4, unless you were a rogue S2-S4 you had to wear all PvP armor to not blow up easily. Thing is, in tBC blow up easily was 10 seconds, now blow up easily is 2 seconds.

Resil is survivability multiplier, you have to have base survivability for it to make sense. Say without resil you can survive for 5 seconds against 2 DPS, throw in resil and you can now live for 8 seconds... that is substantial change between dying in 1 CC/silence and living long enough for your healer to save you. There is no such thing as "almost lived" or resil "almost useful".

Now situation is quite different - you die in 1GCD to 2 good DPS, throwing resil on you get to live 2GCDs... and that is too short for healer to be able to save you.

PvP in WoTLK plays a lot differently thant tBC... yet all CC durations were inherited from the "heal wars" days, where you needed 6 second HoJ or 10 second Blind to kill anyone. Now this CC lasts 2-3 times longer than it takes to kill anyone, as a result we are all forced to play "who can blow up who faster" game, where Resil is a liability and simply self-nerfing damage.

Anecdotal evidence. I tried to play 2-healer 3s team, something that would have worked just fine in tBC. Went 2-8 in 10 games, healers simply could not keep anyone alive against 2 or even 3 DPS teams running around. The only team we beat was 2DK+Pally, DKs could not kill anyone through roots and abolish diseases spam while pally got mana burned to OOM.

Right now 10 second CC or school lockout is a death sentence regardless of resil and that is the underlying problem . Only classes with stop-damage powers that can become "Unavailable" for burn on demand do well. Even if you nerf all these classes fundamentals of CC = gib will not go away, instead PvP will move more into RNG territory. DKs, rogues, paladins, mages ARE NOT the problem - too much damage IS!

So how do we fix this? One of the two things need to happen:

a. Everyone's survivability should go up so we can reasonably expect to survive 1 CC duration in full resil gear. This is just not the case right now.

b. All CC duration should go down, basically HALF all CC duration in PvP from what it is now. If silences/blinds/sheeps and so on were lasting only 5 seconds or less you would have more classes able to survive "healer CCed" burns.

c. Combination approach - mix a. and b.

[ Post edited by Graceland ]

Dimachaeri

< Crna Ruka >

Tichondrius

19. Re: GC: Why so much focus on resilience? 01/14/2009 12:52:42 AM PST

GC, I feel Blizzard has made a grave mistake by itemizing resilience so heavily. PvP gear takes much more effort to attain now, especially compared to PvE gear, so that concern that people will start using PvP gear in PvE just isn't there anymore. Resilience should be worth roughly half the amount it currently is, and those extra item points should be distributed to other stats.

I have a few theories of why you guys overvalued resilience in the first place, but this is my main theory:
You assumed everyone will be taking damage, but in reality, damage will often be focused on just one player the vast majority of the time. For example, a DK playing with a priest will rarely find himself attacking, making the DK have little value for resilience. With how much points resilience currently takes up, a DK/priest comp will never work with the DK only using PvP gear; however, if resilience wasn't worth as much, PvP gear would protect him from potential swaps while not having such a severe impact on his damage. I feel you guys really just shot PvP gear in the foot for fear of it being used in PvE, and in the end made PvE gear required for most classes that even want to consider playing arenas. This is particularly ironic when you consider how much more attainable PvP gear is via PvE.

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