World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems Off

Kiera

< Brotherhood Of The N… >

Mannoroth

0. Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems Off 01/13/2009 01:15:38 PM PST

Source: http://elitistjerks.com/1048802-post337.html

Q u o t e:

BM 53/11/7 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
Devilsaur: 5355.27 DPS
Cat: 5214.19 DPS
Chimera: 5065.86 DPS
Core Hound: 5264.45 DPS
Raptor: 5326.79 DPS
Scorpid: 4820.13 DPS
Spirit Beast: 5247.65 DPS
Wasp: 5222.93 DPS

MM 11/53/7 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
Cat: 5512.30 DPS
Raptor: 5508.88 DPS
Scorpid: 5328.82 DPS
Wasp: 5475.08 DPS
Wind Serpent: 5408.27 DPS

SV 1/18/52 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
Cat: 6078.05 DPS
Raptor: 6072.40 DPS
Scorpid: 5869.25 DPS
Wasp: 6034.44 DPS
Wind Serpent: 5950.95 DPS
-----

BM uses Glyph of Steady Shot, Serpent Sting, and Bestial Wrath. MM and SV use Glyph of Steady Shot, Serpent Sting, and Aspect of the Hawk. All of these numbers are with what I feel is best-in-slot gear for each spec. It should also be noted that I don't believe the spreadsheet has been updated with the very newest numbers for Cats and Spirit Beasts(Cats were buffed slightly and Spirit Beasts were nerfed slightly.)

Source: http://elitistjerks.com/1049199-post343.html

Q u o t e:

BM (53/11/7) AP: 6114 Crit: 42.82%
Devilsaur (5509)
Raptor (5480)
Corehound (5416)
Spirit Beast (5399)
Wasp (5376)
Cat (5367)
Chimera (5191)
Windserpent (5159)

SV (2/18/51) AP: 6803 Crit: 55.00%
Cat (6360)
Raptor (6355)
Wasp (6318)
Windserpent (6221)

MM (15/51/5) AP: 6217 Crit: 48.63%
Cat (5745)
Raptor (5742)
Wasp (5705)
Windserpent (5618)

I know Blizzard's stance on spreadsheets and PTR theory crafting modeling is that it isn't accurate because only they have the "true, most updated" builds, but I find this information a bit disconcerting.

However, based on the above info it seems SV damage is still too high compared to BM and MM, which are closer.

As a BM hunter, I'd really like to see the gap in damage between BM and MM closed even more. . . I hate seeing BM relegated to Vanilla WoW DPS status :-(

What is the damage range Blizzard ultimately wants to see across all three specs? What is your goal for how close each spec will be to the other?

"What is it about wearing a dress that makes someone whine so much? Warlocks, mages, women... sheesh. "
~Markemp

Dravous

< Counsel of Elders >

Whisperwind

1. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 01:39:25 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I know Blizzard's stance on spreadsheets and PTR theory crafting modeling is that it isn't accurate because only they have the "true, most updated" builds, but I find this information a bit disconcerting.

Which is a mistake on their part because the conclusions reached on PTR and 3rd party spreadsheets are and always have been practically dead predictions to what ends up happening on live. The same cannot be said from blizz's testing methods, which generally end up being inaccurate (one has only to look at PTR forums before a patch and performance on live after patch to see this).

Q u o t e:
What is the damage range Blizzard ultimately wants to see across all three specs? What is your goal for how close each spec will be to the other?

I'm sorry, but blizz will NEVER give out that info. To do so would only have the forums flooded with everything ranging from brilliant ideas to flat out nonsense and even threats. Also, I honestly don't think that info really even exists in the way you want it.

"Who the @%@% is pillow pants?"

Kiera

< Brotherhood Of The N… >

Mannoroth

3. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 01:48:12 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I'm sorry, but blizz will NEVER give out that info. To do so would only have the forums flooded with everything ranging from brilliant ideas to flat out nonsense and even threats. Also, I honestly don't think that info really even exists in the way you want it.

Well they already have stated that they want all DPS classes to be within 10% damage of each other, right?

I'm curious if there is a similar range they are shooting for between the specs of each class, and specifically Hunters.

As it stands an 800 dps difference between BM and SV damage output is not a 10% difference.

"What is it about wearing a dress that makes someone whine so much? Warlocks, mages, women... sheesh. "
~Markemp

Kiera

< Brotherhood Of The N… >

Mannoroth

4. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 01:50:11 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I'd personally like to know where they are getting that high of stats. I'm pretty geared myself, and I'm just hitting 4k ap, and 28-30 Crit. Unless they are combining pet ap and crit with hunters, I really don't see how 6k+ with 40 crit+ is even possible in LK atm.

Those results can't be post patch. Seems a bit impossible to me.

From an updated version of Shandara's spreadsheet, where using best in slot gear they are combining Hunter and Pet damage to get a final, total DPS output figure.

"What is it about wearing a dress that makes someone whine so much? Warlocks, mages, women... sheesh. "
~Markemp

Lanj

< Ex Nihilo >

Lightbringer

7. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 02:34:03 PM PST

I'm going to try very hard to be nice here. Before you extremely shortsighted people get survival nerfed again (and likely never fixed back for months/years in the future considering how the devs usually operate,) take the spreadsheet and adjust it for blue/heroic gear and 10man buffs. You're going to see something much much different in terms of DPS, with BM still being great dps in the beginning and scaling poorly, and survival scaling from being worse at lower gear levels and better at higher ones.

Whether high end raiders (I'll include myself since there's only a couple of upgrades I still need from 25mans) like it or not, Blizzard cares a lot about the balance in 10mans, heroics, etc, because this is what a very large portion of the player base is playing... so this balance is tuned toward that. They have already stated in blue posts that they do not care about the ultra-high-end because they're reworking a lot of the things in the hunter class for 3.1+

Complaining about Survival in the short-term is counterproductive, and going to remove our hope of having at least one viable spec in the grueling months before 3.1. Devs have already said they are going to address pet and ammo scaling which will increase BM and MM damage respectively, but neither of these changes will have nearly as much of an effect on survival; it makes sense that it seems slightly high right now. The 18% or even older 20% coefficient was probably accurate long-term compared to other high-end dps class/specs before the devs had dozens of spreadsheets thrust in their face combined with pvp whiners making them "re-examine" it.

Pondero

< Afterlife >

Nazjatar

8. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 02:48:25 PM PST

I am SURE those statistics include a full set of 25 man raid buffs. If you use the spreadsheet he is using for those numbers you will see that.

Kiera

< Brotherhood Of The N… >

Mannoroth

9. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 02:55:41 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Whether high end raiders (I'll include myself since there's only a couple of upgrades I still need from 25mans) like it or not, Blizzard cares a lot about the balance in 10mans, heroics, etc, because this is what a very large portion of the player base is playing... so this balance is tuned toward that.

Where have Blizzard Devs ever said they are balancing us now, or ever have, around pre-25man gear/raiding?

It's in the 25man raids that the 50/21 BM hunters are putting out the massive DPS, that people are screaming for hunter nerfs. I have never gotten the impression based on everything I have read concerning 3.0.8 changes that Blizzard was reworking hunters because pre-25man DPS was too high.

Where did Blizzard say they don't care about the high end raiding balance because they are reworking hunters in 3.1?

All GC said on the matter was that they were basically nerfing hunters now, and then coming back to us later and reworking us, so don't worry too much about Ulduar scaling right now.
That doesn't mean they don't care about 25man balance. . . it just means they aren't balancing Hunters correctly right now.

"What is it about wearing a dress that makes someone whine so much? Warlocks, mages, women... sheesh. "
~Markemp

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

10. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 03:22:10 PM PST

Players generally do a great job generating numbers with what they have. They don't always have the most up to date numbers, and we don't make a herculean effort to get numbers to them. PTRs are our best shot, but even they can lag behind our most current builds.

As a most recent example, Elemental shamans were perplexed by why their numbers were different from ours and there was some amount of shouting that we didn't know what we were talking about and why couldn't we just accept the community's numbers and balance around those? It turned out that the shamans had misunderstood the way a talent worked (almost certainly because of unclear statements on my part) and that when they were able to test on the PTR, their numbers were close to what we predicted. Happy ending.

I don't know know why the EJ hunter numbers you cited don't match ours. It would take a great deal of time for us to dig through all the numbers that we are presented with to understand where the disagreements occur. In this case I suspect it is because Explosive Shot does less damage now than it does on the PTR, but I don't know. Survival is a miniscule percentage of total hunters out there, so we really won't mind them getting a significant bump, but it isn't our intent that they are far and away the highest dps hunter spec (BM shouldn't be either).

We do our tests under a variety of conditions, and fully raid buffed is certainly one of them.

The Ulduar comment I made has been widely mininterpreted, but I made it because so many players were using the argument "We may be okay now, but we won't scale." While some players understand "scaling" perfectly well, it also gets thrown around a lot by less-informed players as the generic reason for why something fails ("RNG" occupies that niche on the PvP side of things sometimes). In the hunter case, it may be that they do scale just fine but it is irrelevant because we are rebalancing hunters for 3.1.

Kiera

< Brotherhood Of The N… >

Mannoroth

12. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 03:27:51 PM PST

Thanks GC.

Like I said, I was just curious if there is a range, like 10%, 15%, etc, that you as Devs have set as a goal for the damage output of each spec. It's obvious that the end goal is for all specs to be raid viable and all classes to produce comparable DPS to each other.

Q u o t e:
Survival is a miniscule percentage of total hunters out there, so we really won't mind them getting a significant bump, but it isn't our intent that they are far and away the highest dps hunter spec (BM shouldn't be either).

If SV gets that big of a bump, the percentage of SV hunters will magnify exponentially ;-)

"What is it about wearing a dress that makes someone whine so much? Warlocks, mages, women... sheesh. "
~Markemp

Blackdeat

Darkspear

13. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 03:29:02 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Players generally do a great job generating numbers with what they have. They don't always have the most up to date numbers, and we don't make a herculean effort to get numbers to them. PTRs are our best shot, but even they can lag behind our most current builds.

As a most recent example, Elemental shamans were perplexed by why their numbers were different from ours and there was some amount of shouting that we didn't know what we were talking about and why couldn't we just accept the community's numbers and balance around those? It turned out that the shamans had misunderstood the way a talent worked (almost certainly because of unclear statements on my part) and that when they were able to test on the PTR, their numbers were close to what we predicted. Happy ending.

I don't know know why the EJ hunter numbers you cited don't match ours. It would take a great deal of time for us to dig through all the numbers that we are presented with to understand where the disagreements occur. In this case I suspect it is because Explosive Shot does less damage now than it does on the PTR, but I don't know. Survival is a miniscule percentage of total hunters out there, so we really won't mind them getting a significant bump, but it isn't our intent that they are far and away the highest dps hunter spec (BM shouldn't be either).

We do our tests under a variety of conditions, and fully raid buffed is certainly one of them.

The Ulduar comment I made has been widely mininterpreted, but I made it because so many players were using the argument "We may be okay now, but we won't scale." While some players understand "scaling" perfectly well, it also gets thrown around a lot by less-informed players as the generic reason for why something fails ("RNG" occupies that niche on the PvP side of things sometimes). In the hunter case, it may be that they do scale just fine but it is irrelevant because we are rebalancing hunters for 3.1.

You are re-balancing hunters for 3.1. What exactly does that mean for the class.

Werebeef

< Elitist Jerks >

Mal'Ganis

14. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 03:29:59 PM PST

Let survival do like 3% more damage than the other builds please. I like replenishment

Lokantu

The Forgotten Coast

16. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 03:32:04 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Survival is a miniscule percentage of total hunters out there, so we really won't mind them getting a significant bump, but it isn't our intent that they are far and away the highest dps hunter spec (BM shouldn't be either).

But after this patch, their numbers are going to shoot up considerably.

Bobet

< CRUSADERS OF DEATH >

Thrall

18. Re: Hunter Damage Between Specs Still Seems O 01/13/2009 03:34:36 PM PST

Q u o t e:

You are re-balancing hunters for 3.1. What exactly does that mean for the class.

They are changing how ammos and quivers work. So that in itself would need for them to adjust hunters, to work with whatever system they develop.

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