Also it seems the new abilities as they are added to the game, are always better and have shorter cooldowns than the ones that have been around forever.

More emphasis needs to be put on how new abilities compare to older ones. Either change the older ones as the new ones are added, or be more careful when adding.

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Q u o t e:
“The Forum Mindset” is the biggest problem with the WoW Forums and class balance discussions in general. Most people would probably say that the biggest problem is the inherent bias of the participants. While there is some overlap with The Forum Mindset, bias ultimately can be sifted out by taking in a discussion as a whole, including the thoughts of different classes on the same subject (like the Damage Dealing Forums). The Forum Mindset precludes even that solution.

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I disagree. Bias is inherent in discussion and can not reasonably be expected to be excluded by participants. Since every person has different experiences, levels of knowledge, and favors they offer varying points of view. In and of itself they offer a healthy mix of views in discussion and prevent group think.

What really mires down "discussion" is how prone to degeneration the discussions become because the posters don't take others' points of view seriously. What ensues is quibbling and character assassination. To put it simply: a refusal to use the forum as place for discussion and instead a podium for their own point of view.

*By the way: posters tend to more readily accept old abilities because it's an experience they are familiar with and there is no precedence for ability removal once that ability makes it live.

if anyone said we're going to nerf warlock armors, nerf pets, make it take 5 casts to do what warlocks used to do in 3, and nerf fear im pretty sure the forums would've said "wtf r u retarded locks are going to be the worst class"

amidionitrite

Excellent post.

Much like politics, I don't think there is a way to really resolve this problem outright. What you're describing is resistance to change which seem to be endemic to all political issues.

For example, lets take the issue of Social Security. Without delving too deep into the history of the program, lets say that President Barack Obama proposes a new system whereby the current generation can reap the benefits of a national healthcare system who's cost would be extraordinarily unsustainable, causing our great grandchildren to shoulder the burden of paying off its cost in a runaway pyramid scheme. Of course there would be outrage from the public if such a program were implemented. By contrasty, try convincing anyone that Social Security needs to go. Even though both programs are similarly flawed, I guarantee you there are plenty of people that would fight for Social Security tooth and nail in spite of the fact that it not returning the benefits FDR once promised and is in fact deepening our national debt. (Disclaimer: I voted for Obama and I don't believe he would be this reckless in implementing such a program)

In the case of class balance, I think a lot of problems also stem from the fact that class balance changes so rapidly from patch to patch. Warlocks are so bad right now but it has little to do with their class ability set-- on paper they still look pretty damn amazing. The real problem can't be seen by most people except by those that play the class, that problem being a grotesquely low survivability compared to other classes. However, with everyone crying equally loud, including the people that have no right to cry (cough death knight/paladin/hunter cough) the voices of the truly underpowered never really get heard amidst the sea of QQ. That's democracy for you, overrepresenting the will of the majority at the cost of justice for the minority.

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Q u o t e:
Aren't you just abusing the fallacy in reverse if you ignore even valid claims of bias?

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No, it's not abusing a fallacy to point out the fallacy, especially given the number of people that commit it.

There are no valid claims of bias unless you have statistics and an analysis of those statistics that show the bias.

If someone is asking for stupid buffs, it's perfectly fine to say why the buffs are stupid, but to say the buffs are stupid because the person asking for them is "biased" is simply compounding the stupidity.

It would probably help in getting our big issues across, and for GC to be able to read and respond to them in shorter time spans, if people stopped posting massive numbers of trash threads where each and every person has their own idea about their own class/spec. GC could also step up to the plate and delete or merge threads when necessary to get rid of clutter.

Scrolling through this subforum between my university classes, you'd think that half the player base was retarded (or possibly just had bad ADD).

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Q u o t e:
In my opinion, the biggest problem is that we cant just get a neutral balance. PVP and PVE are two different things. It will never stop being a problem until they stop trying to make the two the same. I dont think its not that the devs dont know what they are doing, its that what they are trying to do cant be done.

Its like trying to fit the circle in the square, no matter how hard you try, they just dont fit together.

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This isn't actually true. While I'm not to fond of PvP, all balance changes need to be made for PvP, because once you're as close as you're going to get to having the classes balanced to each other, PvE can be retuned.

Honestly though, class balance itself is going to be a nightmare as long as gear disparities exist.

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Q u o t e:


I am sure there are some mischevious players out there attempting to mislead us in order to get buffs. But honestly I don't think there are that many. I think more often the players are misinformed. It's hard to know the mechanics of every class and keep up with the state of their current bugs and issues. Trust me. For example, very often I see dps specs comparing their raid dps to a spec that is at the top of the charts because it is broken and being fixed. Or they are comparing their dps to a theoretical maximum dps generated by a spreadsheet and conveninently forgetting that those are perfect situations assuming near perfect timing and skill.

The way I like to describe it is we need player feedback in order to make informed decisions. That does not mean the forums are for making those decisions. That does not mean that players get to design the game. That does not mean that Blizzard is going to use your suggestion. But player feedback absolutely leads us to change things in the game. There are plenty of examples of this occuring. It's a subtle distinction and not all people get it.

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@ the senior blue. Was this post really needed?? Why is it generally assumed by blues around here that people are saboteurs and fools and only out to derail the game by asking for a rightful balance in comparison to other classes? Perhaps the problem lays closer home at of the sandbox owner itself ?

There is certainly an incongruity in the way the game is conceived in regards to melee and casters with a clear bias towards a prey /predator environment that has become prevalent over so many arena seasons now. There is one particular class that has received partisan treatment in regards to its PVP tools where as there are others who have had a liberal dose of reality splash for a while now and get piecemeal treatment with a promise for further look-ins at some later indeterminate time-frame, which often adds up to a small adjustment that more often than not adds to a sum total value of being less than naught.

If player feedback lead you to change things in the game... the only example I remember seeing are the recent ret changes. Other changes which could have been corrected in the offset in the beta, when a particular class argued itself face in the blue that it had become too weak in regards to PVP fell on deaf ears with amused answers from the blues themselves that things would be again ok at a later date.

Result imbalance between that class and it’s so called counterclass went like a hammer onto the other way, the preferred anti-melee/anti caster class regards this class as a free-hk node and half the population simply shut itself off from one entire aspect of this game after all who will want to enter a bg or arena if there is not even a ghost of a chance or the right tools to take on the preferred four and that the game was lost at the character creation screen... This is perhaps the reason you are facing so much increased anger and disgust?

No sane person will question the skill finesse and downright genius of the PTBs of this game. Its success, its art values, its PVE storylines are simply off the scale. However when PTBs start concluding that all the players
are trying to mislead you.... it’s perhaps you as human beings begin to examine your own decisions and not sit on self appointed perches. Put yourself in a very average casual player's boots NOT playing one of the so called fab-4 and be truthful to yourself ... be this fun? Is it a good feeling that you feel that all the time spent in leveling your toon with love was made to naught because a certain other class has innate advantages that allow for an easier time in the game.

I probably will not ever get an answer to my question. I am a nobody ... but do remember being supercilious with the public that looks up to you, does not make it any easier for the person who is trying to legitimately get answers or trying to understand the current state of the game.

Every game worth playing at least somewhat balances itself based on player feedback. It is just assanine to ignore your player base when making future decisions. Sure you need to take things with a bit of a grain of salt but in general the player base is sincere.

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Q u o t e:


@ the senior blue. Was this post really needed?? Why is it generally assumed by blues around here that people are saboteurs and fools and only out to derail the game by asking for a rightful balance in comparison to other classes? Perhaps the problem lays closer home at of the sandbox owner itself ?

There is certainly an incongruity in the way the game is conceived in regards to melee and casters with a clear bias towards a prey /predator environment that has become prevalent over so many arena seasons now. There is one particular class that has received partisan treatment in regards to its PVP tools where as there are others who have had a liberal dose of reality splash for a while now and get piecemeal treatment with a promise for further look-ins at some later indeterminate time-frame, which often adds up to a small adjustment that more often than not adds to a sum total value of being less than naught.

If player feedback lead you to change things in the game... the only example I remember seeing are the recent ret changes. Other changes which could have been corrected in the offset in the beta, when a particular class argued itself face in the blue that it had become too weak in regards to PVP fell on deaf ears with amused answers from the blues themselves that things would be again ok at a later date.

Result imbalance between that class and it’s so called counterclass went like a hammer onto the other way, the preferred anti-melee/anti caster class regards this class as a free-hk node and half the population simply shut itself off from one entire aspect of this game after all who will want to enter a bg or arena if there is not even a ghost of a chance or the right tools to take on the preferred four and that the game was lost at the character creation screen... This is perhaps the reason you are facing so much increased anger and disgust?

No sane person will question the skill finesse and downright genius of the PTBs of this game. Its success, its art values, its PVE storylines are simply off the scale. However when PTBs start concluding that all the players
are trying to mislead you.... it’s perhaps you as human beings begin to examine your own decisions and not sit on self appointed perches. Put yourself in a very average casual player's boots NOT playing one of the so called fab-4 and be truthful to yourself ... be this fun? Is it a good feeling that you feel that all the time spent in leveling your toon with love was made to naught because a certain other class has innate advantages that allow for an easier time in the game.

I probably will not ever get an answer to my question. I am a nobody ... but do remember being supercilious with the public that looks up to you, does not make it any easier for the person who is trying to legitimately get answers or trying to understand the current state of the game.

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I can tell just by reading this, this person's main is a warlock.

Scanning for shaman refrences.
.
...
.......

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Q u o t e:
Players take it personally when you delete their threads. Draconian forum moderation is tempting sometimes, but some players get really upset even with the moderation we do so we'd have to balance whatever ill will it would generate with any presumed benefit.

But I do agree overall we could use fewer new threads and less bumping. If players are interested in what you have to say, they’ll respond.

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree regarding proper forum moderation, but I certainly am onside with your last point.

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Q u o t e:

clunky

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I can never read this word without thinking totems

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Q u o t e:
Can you give a hypothetical example to better explain your point? If your internal testing says "this ability is too strong", and player testing says "this ability is too weak", how did the player feedback help? Does it only help when they agree? An example would be great.

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Classic example from beta:

Metamorphosis, the warlock 51-pt demo talent was originally a form change that replaced your action bar with a Meta action bar containing the demon-form talents (i miss you demonic leap) and dismissed your pet. This was done because the intent was to replace the warlock abilities with those of the demon form.

Player feedback said, pretty much unanimously:

- Most of my Demo tree talents are geared around symbiotic buffs that are rendered useless by that same tree's 51-pointer when it dismisses my pet. Pet must stay out.
- I can do more DPS with my spell rotation without the Meta spellpower buff than i can in demon form with Immolate Aura and Cleave. We need to be able to use our regular arsenal of spells while in Meta.


These issues were realized and changed.