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Q u o t e:


Was it not considered to just do a base damage reduce for using a 2h as a one-hander as in Diablo II with barbarians? I would think this worked well there and the true desire of the two-handed weapons was to pick up the weapons unique stats and and the combination of the weapons, which seemed rather successfull in D2. Was this deemed a bad idea? And for what reasons? I know plenty of warriors have complaints with this talent, raid warriors usually have no issues with the hit, where the more casual player feels like its a lackluster talent. Because of the importance of hit, the hit change in stat seems like an inferior way to approach this.


BEFORE I get flamed with "thaz 2 dIFF gaMes," if you played both you will see that the warrior concept and skill-set was pretty much carried over from Diablo II and hence my reference. I loved my barb in D2. ;)

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This was discussed in the debates on the beta forums regarding an appropriate penalty for TG, and iirc it was shot down by GC because it essentially became what an earlier poster described, a vanity talent. If you have to nerf the two-handers down to near-one-hander damage ranges to balance it, why not just use one-handers. And unlike BM, you going out and taming a worm or t-rex isn't taking an ilvl 226 boss drop, which one of any number of players in your raid can use, for your offhand because it looks cool.

Its one thing to complain about exotic pets and their lack of necessity, but it has to be understood that the BM tree is miles ahead of fury. Fury is a terribly designed tree which is hampered by our stances and skill penalties and held together purely by the strength of TG. Nerfing TG to bring it in line with other 51 point talents would require a complete rework of the fury tree, if not the warrior class as a whole, and dps warriors were evidently not worth the effort this expansion.

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Q u o t e:


This was discussed in the debates on the beta forums regarding an appropriate penalty for TG, and iirc it was shot down by GC because it essentially became what an earlier poster described, a vanity talent. If you have to nerf the two-handers down to near-one-hander damage ranges to balance it, why not just use one-handers. And unlike BM, you going out and taming a worm or t-rex isn't taking an ilvl 226 boss drop, which one of any number of players in your raid can use, for your offhand because it looks cool.

Its one thing to complain about exotic pets and their lack of necessity, but it has to be understood that the BM tree is miles ahead of fury. Fury is a terribly designed tree which is hampered by our stances and skill penalties and held together purely by the strength of TG. Nerfing TG to bring it in line with other 51 point talents would require a complete rework of the fury tree, if not the warrior class as a whole, and dps warriors were evidently not worth the effort this expansion.

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I see, very good points there. Though in D2 the solution came from the scaling of the items stats with the skills the class possessed. I feel like something similiar could be done here without too much reworking.

This is a somewhat silly discussion. Who cares how powerful that 1 talent point is? There have always been talents that are no brainers that everyone takes. Who here has ever had a fury build that didn't have 5 points in Cruelty?

Here is the best example:

If one fury warrior skipped TG but took Deep Wounds he would outdamage the fury warrior with TG but without deep wounds.

Deep Wounds is a tier 3 talent and it currently makes up most of a fury warriors damage. That has nothing to do with TG.

Lets not forget that if they nerf TG or DW, fury will drop to the bottom of the DPS which would be a shame. Arms is terribad right now, and Prot is simply second best to Prot Paladins. *shrug*

Fury should be competitive for top dps, I'm tired of all the lame arguments about plate armor and OTing. They are all fallacy. Good fury warriors are brought to raids for one reason only: To dish out physical DPS. If they couldn't compete with rogues and ret paladins and ferals they would very quickly find themselves without raid invites. As it is you won't see raids stacking fury warriors like they stack mages/hunters/warlocks/shamans/paladins and you know why? We bring nothing to the table past our damage and one shout. You only need 1 commanding shout.

I would only welcome changes to TG or DW if they come with a complete talent revamp that makes fury fun and engaging and still competitive for top DPS. Otherwise just leave it like it is (which seems to be Blizz's response) until the next expansion.

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Q u o t e:


Every new class has a certain level where they suddenly feel powerful.

Before level 30, I had been missing alot with my Dual Wield.

Suddenly, I get more efficiant with my swords AND a +3% crit increase.

I'm just saying that at level 80 with Titan's Grip it must be crazy, especially with the INC buff.

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You guess what the class or skill will be like at 80 based on how your experience is like at 30. Sorry you failed. Please refrain from posting further, kthx.

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Q u o t e:
This is a somewhat silly discussion. Who cares how powerful that 1 talent point is? There have always been talents that are no brainers that everyone takes. Who here has ever had a fury build that didn't have 5 points in Cruelty?

Here is the best example:

If one fury warrior skipped TG but took Deep Wounds he would outdamage the fury warrior with TG but without deep wounds.

Deep Wounds is a tier 3 talent and it currently makes up most of a fury warriors damage. That has nothing to do with TG.

Lets not forget that if they nerf TG or DW, fury will drop to the bottom of the DPS which would be a shame. Arms is terribad right now, and Prot is simply second best to Prot Paladins. *shrug*

Fury should be competitive for top dps, I'm tired of all the lame arguments about plate armor and OTing. They are all fallacy. Good fury warriors are brought to raids for one reason only: To dish out physical DPS. If they couldn't compete with rogues and ret paladins and ferals they would very quickly find themselves without raid invites. As it is you won't see raids stacking fury warriors like they stack mages/hunters/warlocks/shamans/paladins and you know why? We bring nothing to the table past our damage and one shout. You only need 1 commanding shout.

I would only welcome changes to TG or DW if they come with a complete talent revamp that makes fury fun and engaging and still competitive for top DPS. Otherwise just leave it like it is (which seems to be Blizz's response) until the next expansion.

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I'm tired of hearing warriors saying their survivability doesn't matter. It does.


On the other hand, I do believe fury warriors need to be given something to bring to the table in terms of raid utility. Like a buff to other physical dps in the raid similiar to arms but not the same.

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Q u o t e:


This was discussed in the debates on the beta forums regarding an appropriate penalty for TG, and iirc it was shot down by GC because it essentially became what an earlier poster described, a vanity talent. If you have to nerf the two-handers down to near-one-hander damage ranges to balance it, why not just use one-handers. And unlike BM, you going out and taming a worm or t-rex isn't taking an ilvl 226 boss drop, which one of any number of players in your raid can use, for your offhand because it looks cool.

Its one thing to complain about exotic pets and their lack of necessity, but it has to be understood that the BM tree is miles ahead of fury. Fury is a terribly designed tree which is hampered by our stances and skill penalties and held together purely by the strength of TG. Nerfing TG to bring it in line with other 51 point talents would require a complete rework of the fury tree, if not the warrior class as a whole, and dps warriors were evidently not worth the effort this expansion.

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Pretty much the bolded part. So much of the fury tree is either garbage or fill points.

You have 10 points just to make Dual Wield work with the baked in penalties of using 2 weapons.
The 2nd and 3rd tiers are basically garbage and only used to get deeper.
Our 41 point talent is completely overshadowed by the Feral 31 pointer.
5 Points in one of our 11 point talents (commanding presence) is bested by 2 points in a 5 point talent (Imp blessing of might) in Ret.

I could go on but I think you get the idea. If TG wasn't a heads and shoulders DPS boost over using 2 1handers the whole Fury tree would need a huge revamp to make it even worth spec'n into it.

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Q u o t e:


I'm tired of hearing warriors saying their survivability doesn't matter. It does.

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No, actually it doesn't. 25 man raid bosses 1 shot just me like a Mage or Warlock. If Patch ganks the OTs and starts in on the melee dps, does it really matter if he does 42000 hatefuls to me and 60,000 to a Warlock? Dead is dead. The amount of overkill doesn't matter.

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Q u o t e:


I'm tired of hearing warriors saying their survivability doesn't matter. It does.


On the other hand, I do believe fury warriors need to be given something to bring to the table in terms of raid utility. Like a buff to other physical dps in the raid similiar to arms but not the same.

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Survivability does matter. Fury has some of the worst survivability in the game, get a clue. We take 10% more damage than everyone else. Our armor hardly makes a difference. Tanks don't tank because of armor, they tank because of defense and avoidance and damage mitigation talents. Most damage in raids is AoE magic anyway so my armor is 100% useless and I still take 10% more damage than anyone else.

Lets take a look at survivability since I'm sick of people misreprsenting it:

Rogues -- Feint, Vanish for threat dumps. Cloak of Shadows saves their lives all the time. I'm sure I'm leaving out a few as well.

Paladins -- Bubble, lay on hands, heals, hand of salvation, tons of raid buffs, etc.

Mages -- Ice block anyone? Not to mention blink, decurse, frost nova, etc.

Warlocks -- I'll give you that your survivability is not much better than mine, but you still have a threat dump and you bring soulstones, health stones, pet buffs, summon, etc to a raid. I have none of that.

Hunters -- Feign Death, powerful pets, many aspects for different situations.

Also, every one that is ranged dps automatically has a higher chance of survival than a melee. You can reach 130% threat on the tank before you pull agro compared to my 100%. You are generally removed from cleaves and PBAoE effects which are on almost every raid boss. You don't have nearly as many tricky manuevers to perform on most fights compared to melee.

Simply put, fury warriors have probably the worst survivability of any dps. The only class that I can think of that is more fragile is a non-feral druid. Even priests have shields and dispersion if shadow.

Please, don't ever bring up survivability in regards to fury ever again, because we have none.

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Q u o t e:


No, actually it doesn't. 25 man raid bosses 1 shot just me like a Mage or Warlock. If Patch ganks the OTs and starts in on the melee dps, does it really matter if he does 42000 hatefuls to me and 60,000 to a Warlock? Dead is dead. The amount of overkill doesn't matter.

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Its even more laughable because the warlock wouldn't even get the hateful because he won't be in melee range. Because all ranged dps have more survivability than ANY melee class. Period.

The whole notion that fury has survivability over any other class is just pure fallacy.

Unfortunately plate means less for survivability than it ever has...

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Q u o t e:


Its even more laughable because the warlock wouldn't even get the hateful because he won't be in melee range. Because all ranged dps have more survivability than ANY melee class. Period.

The whole notion that fury has survivability over any other class is just pure fallacy.

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we wear special platez and makes us super good.

To be perfectly honest, a dps warrior probably has the least survivability of any other class in the game when in a raiding environment.

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Q u o t e:


While normally we like for talents to be of roughly the same power

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Apparently this doesn't apply to two of the three DK talent trees.

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Q u o t e:


Survivability does matter. Fury has some of the worst survivability in the game, get a clue. We take 10% more damage than everyone else. Our armor hardly makes a difference. Tanks don't tank because of armor, they tank because of defense and avoidance and damage mitigation talents. Most damage in raids is AoE magic anyway so my armor is 100% useless and I still take 10% more damage than anyone else.

Lets take a look at survivability since I'm sick of people misreprsenting it:

Rogues -- Feint, Vanish for threat dumps. Cloak of Shadows saves their lives all the time. I'm sure I'm leaving out a few as well.

Paladins -- Bubble, lay on hands, heals, hand of salvation, tons of raid buffs, etc.

Mages -- Ice block anyone? Not to mention blink, decurse, frost nova, etc.

Warlocks -- I'll give you that your survivability is not much better than mine, but you still have a threat dump and you bring soulstones, health stones, pet buffs, summon, etc to a raid. I have none of that.

Hunters -- Feign Death, powerful pets, many aspects for different situations.

Also, every one that is ranged dps automatically has a higher chance of survival than a melee. You can reach 130% threat on the tank before you pull agro compared to my 100%. You are generally removed from cleaves and PBAoE effects which are on almost every raid boss. You don't have nearly as many tricky manuevers to perform on most fights compared to melee.

Simply put, fury warriors have probably the worst survivability of any dps. The only class that I can think of that is more fragile is a non-feral druid. Even priests have shields and dispersion if shadow.

Please, don't ever bring up survivability in regards to fury ever again, because we have none.

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I'll respond to you because the other guy didn't present any logical arguement.

First all, you don't take more damage than everyone. Highlight your defense value and look at the reduction value, minus 10%, I assure you your number is greater than my 12-13%. For magic damage, the damage increase is still negated by the fact you have WAY more then 10% more health.
If you are having threat issues you need a better tank because we have 2 fury warriors who pull 5k-6k dps on pathwerk and dont have threat problems. I pull 4.7-5k and am on the heels of the tanks threat. I don't see how threat can be an issue for you.

All the classes you listed with escapes for damage, drop their dps to use the skills said, with the exception of hunters. (which have been deemed OP in PvE dps by devs).

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Q u o t e:


I'll respond to you because the other guy didn't present any logical arguement.

First all, you don't take more damage than everyone. Highlight your defense value and look at the reduction value, minus 10%, I assure you your number is greater than my 12-13%. For magic damage, the damage increase is still negated by the fact you have WAY more then 10% more health.
If you are having threat issues you need a better tank because we have 2 fury warriors who pull 5k-6k dps on pathwerk and dont have threat problems. I pull 4.7-5k and am on the heels of the tanks threat. I don't see how threat can be an issue for you.

All the classes you listed with escapes for damage, drop their dps to use the skills said, with the exception of hunters. (which have been deemed OP in PvE dps by devs).

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Survivability is a red herring thrown out in PvE encounter discussions. Regardless, we do take 10% more damage than others to dps, our over inflated stamina pools due to terribly itemized plate dps equipment has no bearing on this nor is justification for this, and as melee we have to deal with far more danger than ranged due to PBAoE, conal AoE, cleaves, whirlwinds, tail swipes, chain effects, any number of nastiness which can be generally dealt with easier by ranged in addition to having a significantly lower threat threshold.

But thats a moot point really. If you get hit by a cleave or a whirlwind and you werent supposed to, you die. If you stand in a void zone or dont run to safe zones on 4H, you die. If you pull agro off a boss, theres a significant chance you will die. Whether you have 13k armor and 22k health or 2k armor and 18k health doesn't change those outcomes. Anything else, provided your healers aren't dead and are paying attention you can live through expected damage.

PvP is a whole other can of worms with our additional damage taken factor.

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Q u o t e:

Deep Wounds is a tier 3 talent and it currently makes up most of a fury warriors damage. That has nothing to do with TG.

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I agree with the majority of your post, but please stop proffering up and blindly saying @!@% like this. On all but cheesy encounters (Malygos, Loatheb, Thaddius being the most complained about by far) DW accounts for at most 20+/-2% of a warrior's damage. Compare this to melee damage ~20%, HS (which is really just melee since it sucks up a white MH swing) ~20%, and BT clocking in at what, 15/18% tops and you know what I see? A 5 point tier 3 arms talent doing equal damage to omg ... white swings and HS's. The fact that blizzard finally fixed the talent so that we get every point of damage out of it instead of it being buggy or flawed in design isn't something to @%*%# about but something to fight for.

@GC ... go ahead and drag out all those posts we made on the beta boards about TG being a waste if you left the 15% hit penalty attached to it and see just how much of what we said actually merited itself out and was proven. Congratulations, you finally managed to do something that makes people want to play their warrior again, fixed a talent that's been broken and non-working since its inception and now you're going to try to back step, save face, and at the same time emasculate arms and fury dps with an "I told you so"...? Please, give us a little more credit than that.

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I wouldn't characterize it as sacrificing our design philosophy. We have guidelines, but we also need to be able to skirt around those guidelines sometimes. That is one of the things that makes the classes and talents interesting. In a world where everything was truly equivalent, you also risk the choices being a lot less interesting. Sometimes the exceptions are the most interesting. (E.g. History tends to most celebrate those battles that were upsets, not those where the expected party indeed triumphed.)

There is certainly a risk that every spec will argue for their version of Titan's Grip. What players will need to remember is that we won't take a spec at 100% and give them a talent that adds 20% to that. If we add a talent that is a 20% boost (I am just making up numbers for illustrative purposes), the class will be balanced at 80% and we will assume everyone has the talent.

We assume all Fury warriors (at higher level) dual-wield two-handed weapons, just like we assume all Affliction warlocks are casting a lot of dots. By contrast, we do not assume that all hunters use bows or that all Demo warlocks use Felguards all the time.

It's an unusual talent, but in this case we feel it needs to be unusual to make it work.

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Just curious Ghost, a lot of us are aware at this point that with TG's scaling you're going to have to implement some nerfs to reign it back in at some point.

Do you have any ideas on which talents you'll be hitting to achieve that (Flurry? Dual Wield Spec?), or is it not something you've really thought about yet? Would be nice to have an idea of what to expect is all.