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Q u o t e:
warrior pvp is broken, fury dps starts off high but scales poorly in high endgame, titans grip is mediocre, this is a bad troll

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Guess you haven't looked at a WWS report in the last month? Fury Warriors are starting to scale past the 50/21 Hunter spec which Blizz deemed to be massively OP and nerfing to the ground.

And GC that's fine, there's many 51pt talents currently functioning like TG is. Chimera Shot and Explosive Shot coming to mind off just my own class. Can't imagine an Arcane Mage without Barrage. Ret Pally without Divine Storm. Etc.

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Q u o t e:
"Fury Warriors are starting to scale past the 50/21 Hunter spec which Blizz deemed to be massively OP and nerfing to the ground."

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STARTING to scale?

Our two good Fury warriors have been scaling past even our best hunters for a month now. It is a complete joke how hunters are getting crazy nerfs when some classes are already trivializing hunter DPS.

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Q u o t e:
I would love to go back and link all of those posts where warriors argued that TG was underpowered as long as it had a hit penalty, or that it "wouldn't scale well."

It's a very good talent. While normally we like for talents to be of roughly the same power, in the case of Titan's Grip, we understand how huge it is and are willing to balance Fury around it. We don't relly think TG will be an optional talent as we design most talents to be. At the moment we're okay with that.

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Ghost, most of the discussions were other ways to nerf it. More chance to miss simply wasnt attractive to pvpers. Most warriors would agree that they would rather have a flat damage reduction then an increased chance to miss. Misses are not fun, lower damage isnt as noticeable.

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Q u o t e:
I would love to go back and link all of those posts where warriors argued that TG was underpowered as long as it had a hit penalty, or that it "wouldn't scale well."

It's a very good talent. While normally we like for talents to be of roughly the same power, in the case of Titan's Grip, we understand how huge it is and are willing to balance Fury around it. We don't relly think TG will be an optional talent as we design most talents to be. At the moment we're okay with that.

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You can go ahead and link all of those posts. Just because some random new person comes in and says "OMG IT'S SO POWERFUL" that doesn't make it so. You have a nasty habit of ignoring comprehensive data when it goes against what you firmly believe, but have no problem agreeing with that same data as long as it coincides with your belief. Titan's Grip was said to scale extremely bad when it had a 15% hit penalty and that was indeed a fact. It was even worse before with the haste penalty. You also raised all of the AC on the raid bosses and Armor Penetration is really terrible for PvE, so there's our "counterbalance" considering every single one of our attacks is mitigated by AC except possibly Deep Wounds.

I'm not clear on if the bleed damage is calculated through weapon damage prior to mitigation or after. It seems like prior, but that's a subject for the other thread.

PS: You also said "We see Warriors using two handed weapons" and at the same time said you were not going to balance the Fury tree around one talent. You should probably not word things as absolutes as much because you're now doing the opposite of what you said your design philosophy was and it seems like the reason why is because you've thrown your hands up in the air on this situation.

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Q u o t e:
I would love to go back and link all of those posts where warriors argued that TG was underpowered as long as it had a hit penalty, or that it "wouldn't scale well."

It's a very good talent. While normally we like for talents to be of roughly the same power, in the case of Titan's Grip, we understand how huge it is and are willing to balance Fury around it. We don't relly think TG will be an optional talent as we design most talents to be. At the moment we're okay with that.

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I remember a few people were saying that, yeah, but as I recall the majority of us were just posting that a 15% chance to miss on specials 1) was really really not fun, 2) destroyed any viability of the spec in PvP 3) made the spec feel like it was only designed to be played by people at the level cap and in full raid epics.

And we were right. I suspect you knew that we were right too, which is why you decided to scrap the idea.

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Q u o t e:
I would love to go back and link all of those posts where warriors argued that TG was underpowered as long as it had a hit penalty, or that it "wouldn't scale well."

It's a very good talent. While normally we like for talents to be of roughly the same power, in the case of Titan's Grip, we understand how huge it is and are willing to balance Fury around it. We don't relly think TG will be an optional talent as we design most talents to be. At the moment we're okay with that.

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Why are you willing to sacrifice your design philosophy for one talent? You do realize this is going to lead to future pointing of fingers with people saying "well, that might be your intent, but hey, look at Titan's Grip - you made an exception for them!", right?

I just hope you're prepared to carry this banner all the way home and even into future expansions :)

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Q u o t e:

STARTING to scale?

Our two good Fury warriors have been scaling past even our best hunters for a month now. It is a complete joke how hunters are getting crazy nerfs when some classes are already trivializing hunter DPS.

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Well, I don't really know what to tell you, it's possible the Hunters aren't quite abusing the 50/21 spec to its fullest potential.

However the point remains that Fury Warriors are getting close to, or less than 1% away from the DPS that a class/spec is achieving that Blizzard decided to nerf into the ground based on how much more DPS we were supposedly doing than everyone else.

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Q u o t e:


You can go ahead and link all of those posts. Just because some random new person comes in and says "OMG IT'S SO POWERFUL" that doesn't make it so. You have a nasty habit of ignoring comprehensive data when it goes against what you firmly believe, but have no problem agreeing with that same data as long as it coincides with your belief. Titan's Grip was said to scale extremely bad when it had a 15% hit penalty and that was indeed a fact. It was even worse before with the haste penalty. You also raised all of the AC on the raid bosses and Armor Penetration is really terrible for PvE, so there's our "counterbalance" considering every single one of our attacks is mitigated by AC except possibly Deep Wounds.

I'm not clear on if the bleed damage is calculated through weapon damage prior to mitigation or after. It seems like piror, but that's a subject for the other thread.

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/comfort

We were all there for beta cry about it. :(

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Q u o t e:
We don't really think TG will be an optional talent as we design most talents to be. At the moment we're okay with that.

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I think we can agree that designing holistically around an end-state goal will produce better results than a reductionist approach whereby class talents are built according to strict "budgets". This is especially true of the deep talents that require a commitment to a talent tree and predictably foreclose access to other powerful talents in other trees.


* Also: Many classes receive a full complement of trainable abilities that in turn receive perks from talents. Warriors, on the other hand, receive almost all of their important dps abilities and gameplay mechanics from talents alone. There's no point in complaining about Dispersion or Dancing Rune Weapon or any other perk 51point talent if your DPS is built into the core of your class or distributed through many moderately powerful talents.

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Q u o t e:
The hit penalty doesn't effect raiding warriors currently, which is why they're removing it. It will end up being a buff for leveling warriors who don't yet have gear with +hit, but warriors who've been raiding and have purps already it won't effect either way.

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Flat out lying.

How does it not help? 5% less hit vs 5% more hit.

I can't believe gc even responded tot his thread, it just seems so uneducated.

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Q u o t e:


Flat out lying.

How does it not help? 5% less hit vs 5% more hit.

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The argument is that they'd have to gear that 5% hit anyhow for rage consistency, so nothing changes in terms of hit requirements.

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Q u o t e:
I would love to go back and link all of those posts where warriors argued that TG was underpowered as long as it had a hit penalty, or that it "wouldn't scale well."

It's a very good talent. While normally we like for talents to be of roughly the same power, in the case of Titan's Grip, we understand how huge it is and are willing to balance Fury around it. We don't relly think TG will be an optional talent as we design most talents to be. At the moment we're okay with that.

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It's about as optional as Haunt is for an affliction warlock.

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Q u o t e:


Flat out lying.

How does it not help? 5% less hit vs 5% more hit.

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You fail at understanding current warrior end game gear selection and class mechanics.

When you go to attack an equal level mob as a dual wielding class, there are two different types of attacks. White auto attacks, and yellow special attacks. Normally, white attacks incur a 19% chance to miss and yellow attacks only have a 5% chance to miss.

Currently with titans grip, when attacking an equal level mob, you have a 19% chance to miss with white attacks and a 10% chance to miss with special attacks. Ie, a 5% increased chance to miss with special attacks.

Here is where you are a moron. Just about every raiding warrior stacks around 10 to 13% chance to hit completely negating the special attack penalty. They do this not to get around the special attack penalty, but because they need that kind of hit in order to make their rage generation smooth enough to allow them to complete a WW/bloodthirst rotation.

So yes, the poster you quoted is 100% correct, this "buff" does absolutely nothing for pve.

It allows pvp warriors the option of specing fury with pvp gear and not gimping themselves to death though, and lets be honest, warriors are not exactly the powerhouse they once were in previous expansions.

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Q u o t e:
It also just boggled my mind that Blizzard would just throw in a talent like that for warriors while Shadow Priests get...fricken... Dispersion o_O

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No offense Dire, but don't try to make a sideways jab at Spriests with this. Shadow gets Shadowform which is just as mandatory and just as much of a DPS increase for them as TG is for Fury warriors. Very, very few talents are above and beyond simply being characteristically defining of the spec that includes them. Shadowform has always been this way. Shadowform is the epitome of of defining talents, both in power and in character.

If TG is to be the same for Fury warriors, then I have no complaints. As long as the rest of the warrior class is built around it, then mechanically the hit% loss being on the talent or off the talent is fairly arbitrary.

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Q u o t e:
I would love to go back and link all of those posts where warriors argued that TG was underpowered as long as it had a hit penalty, or that it "wouldn't scale well."

It's a very good talent. While normally we like for talents to be of roughly the same power, in the case of Titan's Grip, we understand how huge it is and are willing to balance Fury around it. We don't relly think TG will be an optional talent as we design most talents to be. At the moment we're okay with that.

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Honestly I'd prefer if TG was nerfed to allow fury to be balanced as a whole and useful as a part of a hybrid spec. The prot dps specs of beta had me really excited, even after they were nerfed into the ground, because I thought they'd buff the entire fury tree and not just one talent.

Don't get me wrong, TG is cool and fun to play, but the entire tree balanced around it is silly, and I think in the long term it's best to have it nerfed into the ground so fury as a whole can be fixed. Let's all be honest with each other and admit that even though mid-fury has seen some buffs it's still lackluster at best. There are really NO optional talents unlike prot, just must-have and ignored ones. I've been toying around with a DK and I'd like to see the warrior trees show the same sort of flexibility. Even my feral druid has real choices to make in the feral tree (the required resto minors are a bummer though).

TLDR Nerf Titan's Grip by changing how the talent operates not by changing the rest of the warrior trees, in favor of long-term balance over short-term pigeon holed balance.

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Q u o t e:

You fail at understanding current warrior end game gear selection and class mechanics.

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Your number are wrong. Get the right ones before flaming. (9% special/single weapon cap, 28% for dw white on bosses)

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Q u o t e:
I would love to go back and link all of those posts where warriors argued that TG was underpowered as long as it had a hit penalty, or that it "wouldn't scale well."

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I posted about this during Beta; your comment is out of context. The original hit penalty was 15%, which certainly does paint things in a different light. For one, it made it a non-starter for PvP (i.e. yellows missing way too much).

And you always caution us for taking things out of context...

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Q u o t e:


I posted about this during Beta; your comment is out of context. The original hit penalty was 15%, which certainly does paint things in a different light. For one, it made it a non-starter for PvP (i.e. yellows missing way too much).

And you always caution us for taking things out of context...

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No, there really were people (LOTS AND LOTS) that claimed they did calcs with naxx itemization that "proved" TG was terrible with the 15% penalty.

It wasn't.

12% was a big buff, but the community was still in denial so now we have a hugely OP 51 point talent. It's probably the most OP talent in the game, and I'd guess that it provides more dps than all the points we currently invest in the arms tree in the typical TG build.

TG totally throws the entirety of the warrior trees out of balance because it is just so massively OP.