So, RNG stun was removed from Starfall - this isn't a QQ post, I could see this being a good change in the long run especially if other forms of RNG stun get removed. But I feel like the RNG stun and the possibility of the spell being overpowered in PvP was one of the biggest obstacles to really taking a hard look at this spell's scaling, and one of the biggest reasons moonkins refrained from asking for buffs to Starfall.

The benefit this spell gets from your stats is VERY poor right now, about 2% of your spell power per star, making it the poorest scaling Balance damage spell in the game. With the stun nerf it will quickly become completely useless not only in PvP but also in PvE except as a way of producing Nature's Grace procs. Maybe it's just me, but 1100 mana for a 3 minute cooldown that does nothing for me except generate 3-4 NG procs seems astoundingly weak. I notice almost no difference using the spell now compared to just after I hit level 80; the only time the damage noticeably increases is after training a new rank. It does practically the exact same thing whether I have 1000 spell power or 3000 or 5000.

So if the RNG stun is removed from Starfall that must mean you are planning to buff the damage...right?

Really that's interesting because usually spells that have long cooldowns and no root or snare component have HIGHER damage per cast time than spammable spells, not lower.

damage is out of control, I don't think they';re going to be fixing any pvp issues with more damage :P


You have to remember that starfall is a channeled effect that lets you still cast while it operates. The damage of the spell is designed with this in mind. It's additional damage on your target + extra damage to everyone nearby. I think it's a decent ability, certainly not as bad as you guys say.

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Q u o t e:
damage is out of control, I don't think they';re going to be fixing any pvp issues with more damage :P


You have to remember that wstarfall is a channels effect that lets you still cast while it operates. The damage of the spell is designed with this in mind. It's additional damahge on your target + extra damage to everyone nearby. I think it's a decent ability, certainly not as bad as you guys say.

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Removal of RNG stun = worthless in PvP. The actual damage it does is very small and even easier to lock out with any kind of stun or CC now that starfall's stun component is gone.

Poor scaling + high mana cost + long cooldown = very nearly worthless in PvE. Hurricane does more AoE damage and even for one GCD Starfall's single target damage is extremely lackluster. The only reason I continue to use it at all is for the handful of Nature's Grace procs, and like I mentioned I think 1100 mana and a 3 minute cooldown for some mediocre damage and a couple of slightly faster Starfire casts is...well, really disappointing when you consider the potential it has as an innovative ability. 2% of spell power benefit per star means that if the spell is left in its current form then it won't be worth it for either the damage or the NG procs a tier or two down the road, and I'd like to see the spell remain useful.

Removing the RNG stun *should* be the first step toward buffing this spell's viability in other ways, I am curious to see if this is really the direction things are going.

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Removal of RNG stun = worthless in PvP. The actual damage it does is very small and even easier to lock out with any kind of stun or CC now that starfall's stun component is gone.

Poor scaling + high mana cost + long cooldown = very nearly worthless in PvE. Hurricane does more AoE damage and even for one GCD Starfall's single target damage is extremely lackluster. The only reason I continue to use it at all is for the handful of Nature's Grace procs, and like I mentioned I think 1100 mana and a 3 minute cooldown for some mediocre damage and a couple of slightly faster Starfire casts is...well, really disappointing when you consider the potential it has as an innovative ability. 2% of spell power benefit per star means that if the spell is left in its current form then it won't be worth it for either the damage or the NG procs a tier or two down the road, and I'd like to see the spell remain useful.

Removing the RNG stun *should* be the first step toward buffing this spell's viability in other ways, I am curious to see if this is really the direction things are going.

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I agree with you Bad. The removal of the RNG stun is something that I am not surprised about, but it does leave the spell really lacking as far as usefulness. It either should have more base damage, better scaling, or some other secondary effect.

The RNG stun on starfall made it one of the balance trees few defensive cooldowns, so I wouldn't even mind something defensive being tacked on, even if it means no improvement for the spell in PvE (which I do more than PvP).

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Q u o t e:
So, RNG stun was removed from Starfall - this isn't a QQ post, I could see this being a good change in the long run especially if other forms of RNG stun get removed. But I feel like the RNG stun and the possibility of the spell being overpowered in PvP was one of the biggest obstacles to really taking a hard look at this spell's scaling, and one of the biggest reasons moonkins refrained from asking for buffs to Starfall.

The benefit this spell gets from your stats is VERY poor right now, about 2% of your spell power per star, making it the poorest scaling Balance damage spell in the game. With the stun nerf it will quickly become completely useless not only in PvP but also in PvE except as a way of producing Nature's Grace procs. Maybe it's just me, but 1100 mana for a 3 minute cooldown that does nothing for me except generate 3-4 NG procs seems astoundingly weak. I notice almost no difference using the spell now compared to just after I hit level 80; the only time the damage noticeably increases is after training a new rank. It does practically the exact same thing whether I have 1000 spell power or 3000 or 5000.

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Why do you even try with this. GC wont even give a flying *%!* what you have to say about starfall. Everything is %%*#ign biased in this game based on classes that devs play. Which ever class/spec a dev plays will never be nerfed :) As for starfall I couldn't be more pissed about this. That stun (if RNG was on my side) would allow me to actually have a shot and kill a rogue. Now? Its all pointless.

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Why do you even try with this. GC wont even give a flying *%!* what you have to say about starfall. Everything is %%*#ign biased in this game based on classes that devs play. Which ever class/spec a dev plays will never be nerfed :) As for starfall I couldn't be more pissed about this. That stun (if RNG was on my side) would allow me to actually have a shot and kill a rogue. Now? Its all pointless.

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Gee, I dunno, maybe cause GC and the other devs put this forum here so they could see feedback they were getting from players and have a discussion about how the different classes' damage dealing abilities stack up against each other?

Even before this change the talent was quite lackluster for the damage it provided, which is what made me suspect the removal of the RNG stun was a step to prepare to make the spell scale meaningfully in PvE and be an ability we might actually care about using. As it is right now even if I use the spell every time it is off cooldown it is less than 1% of my total damage on boss fights and will only become a smaller and smaller % due to how little it benefits from spellpower.

So yeah, I was kind of hoping that we could have a discussion about how much damage the spell does now that overpowering the ability in PvP should be much less of a concern. That is all.

Wouldn't be much of a nerf if you buffed something else, now would it? Getting kind of old, the I need compensation for what you took from me. Hey how about this... you get nothing.

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Q u o t e:
Wouldn't be much of a nerf if you buffed something else, now would it? Getting kind of old, the I need compensation for what you took from me. Hey how about this... you get nothing.

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Hi there, I'm not sure if you noticed this but they made the same change to your Death and Decay glyph. Have a nice day.

At this point (post nerf) the usefulness of the spell is VERY limited.

Pros:
1. Its useful for rounding up pve mobs quickly for a hurricane session once every 3 minutes. I.e. A 51-point solo-grinding assist talent.
2. Its useful as a nature's grace proc-generator on a bossfight where you don't have mana troubles.

Cons:
Here are the very real problems with the spell:
1. Its cooldown is quite long (although since its not very useful I suppose this doesn't matter at the moment)
2. Its damage is so small its not worth the global cooldown in most cases, unless its a gigantic AoE situation. Mainly Naxx trash would be its main use, although you have to be VERY careful not to pull extra groups. You can't really use it in advance of hurricane before mobs are grouped, because if the mobs aren't grouped, then the tank doesn't have control of them, and you'd be stupid to AoE at that point. In any case a 51-point talent to make us better trash clearers is pretty silly.
3. It costs a huge amount of mana.
4. Any kind of incapacitation of the Moonkin cancels the damage from the spell.
5. With it being so useless, getting it takes away a valuable point from a very point-starved moonkin tree (which requires 13-16 points in resto to be effective). Thus, many druids don't even spec for it as it is, and its being nerfed further?!


Things that USED to be useful but are now absent:
1. Used to bring stealthed classes out of stealth (pvp)
2. Used to act as a RNG stun to hopefully save the day (pvp)

So at the moment it seems to have 1 use in solo pve, and 1 use in raid pve. Strangely, although its not a very good pve talent and many druids considered it a pvp talent, after the upcoming nerf it will have almost NO pvp use, and won't have any better pve use either, but it will I guess be considered a (bad) pve talent.

I agree with what is said. The RNG stun was the only thing starfall had going for it in a PvP situation... the damage output by starfall is pretty laughable.

And the issue isn't just that they removed the RNG stun - it's a series of (5 nerfs right?) changes in the upcoming patch that is quickly turning starfall into quite likely the most useless 51 point talent in the game.

About the only thing the change will accomplish as it stands, is that many (if not most) moonkins will be respeccing out of starfall.

It's a shame that a 51 point talent would be considered virtually worthless.

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Q u o t e:
I agree with what is said. The RNG stun was the only thing starfall had going for it in a PvP situation... the damage output by starfall is pretty laughable.

And the issue isn't just that they removed the RNG stun - it's a series of (5 nerfs right?) changes in the upcoming patch that is quickly turning starfall into quite likely the most useless 51 point talent in the game.

About the only thing the change will accomplish as it stands, is that many (if not most) moonkins will be respeccing out of starfall.

It's a shame that a 51 point talent would be considered virtually worthless.

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It does make fitting typhoon into a PvE build a bit easier though...

Pro-tip:

In PvE, Typhoon will increase AoE damage more and provide greater utility than Starfall.

The only benefit that Starfall has over Typhoon in PvE is that it is marginally useful on a single target encounter while Typhoon is completely worthless.

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Q u o t e:
At this point (post nerf) the usefulness of the spell is VERY limited.
Things that USED to be useful but are now absent:
1. Used to bring stealthed classes out of stealth (pvp)
2. Used to act as a RNG stun to hopefully save the day (pvp)

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3. Used to return mana upon critting when the caster was in MK form.

What I want to know is why the stun aspect of Celestial Focus wasn't removed completely. If this is really about rng stuns, I'd think the random proc from starfire would be an issue as well.

You forgot Seal of Justice GC.

Just FYI.

In the long run are blackout and impact mechanics you'd like to replace as well?