Where do you see DW going in the future? I'm hoping the change to KM along with the restoration of the HB cooldown doesn't completely neuter us, which I highly doubt it will. Instead I hope it brings us in line with 2h Unholy, maybe leaving us still a bit ahead if we play our rotations/CDs right and make efficient use of KM procs along with the gargoyle, which in its current state is still a nice DPS booster.

To clarify my general question, would you like to see DW become on par with, slightly above, or slightly below the capabilities of a 2h DPS spec? A reasoning behind your answer would be nice too :) Until then, stay away from the gin. Bad for ya.

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Q u o t e:
On par. It's tricky because for those classes to which we have given a DW option, it always comes to dominate. But we do want it to be an option for DKs. On live right now it doesn't feel like an option because it so overpowers the 2H style.

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So would you ever redesign the other classes that can dual wield to make them on par with thier non-dual wielding damage?

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Q u o t e:
You wouldn't want to see me without it.

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I wanna see!

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Q u o t e:
So would you ever redesign the other classes that can dual wield to make them on par with thier non-dual wielding damage?

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They are constantly tweaking warrior DPS specs to try and make arms (2H) and fury (DW and now DW2H) do comparable DPS.

They aren't exactly succeeding, but they've stated it as a goal many times.

I agree that DW should be an option, but it is the only style that gives competitive DPS. I regularly pull around 3.7k along with my fellow Mages and Rogues as DW, but as 2h I can barely hope to hit 2500... And that's with one of the best 2h weapons in the game at the moment. I really think that 2h will need a substantial buff to keep up with DW DPS. even after the 3.0.8 changes.

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Q u o t e:


On par. It's tricky because for those classes to which we have given a DW option, it always comes to dominate. But we do want it to be an option for DKs. On live right now it doesn't feel like an option because it so overpowers the 2H style.

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GC, so can you give us brief preview what is planned to help 2H spec, especially Blood since it is the only tree that does not work with DW?

Plague Strike, currently at 30% weapon damage, is one good way to buff 2 handed damage. Currently it isn't damage source for DW OR 2H, by increasing weapon damage to say 60% it will be boost for 2H but not DW.

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Q u o t e:


You wouldn't want to see me without it.

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That is when the beatings come right ?

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Q u o t e:


On par. It's tricky because for those classes to which we have given a DW option, it always comes to dominate. But we do want it to be an option for DKs. On live right now it doesn't feel like an option because it so overpowers the 2H style.

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Thank you for not saying "if DW is outscaleing 2h anymore" everyone knew the dw specs were the only real option for serious dps.

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Q u o t e:


On par. It's tricky because for those classes to which we have given a DW option, it always comes to dominate. But we do want it to be an option for DKs. On live right now it doesn't feel like an option because it so overpowers the 2H style.

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Part of the problem is that there's been one superior spec among 2H specs and due to a bug you can't have more than one in raid. That feels like it constricts my options a lot, not to mention the inherent itemization problems (no one wants this Widow's Fury but everyone and their grandmother wants Betrayer!) make getting geared and subsequently competing in raid much easier (this maybe applies more after patch, otherwise you can change competing to "Facesmashing"). I'd love for both to be on par with each other, but more importantly I'd like to see the three specs become a bit more balanced amongst each other. Some changes in the patch may smooth this out but I'd really like to see that EP bug get fixed so I can actually choose which 2H spec I'd prefer rather than having that option denied.

The problem really is that there is only one real spec for DW (yes I know the heavier frost one and tri-spec...but they don't compare). The longer this goes...the more standardized all DKs will be. You might have a 2hander guy doing it for buffs...but the buffs really aren't strong enough to justify the dps loss.

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Q u o t e:
I agree that DW should be an option, but it is the only style that gives competitive DPS. I regularly pull around 3.7k along with my fellow Mages and Rogues as DW, but as 2h I can barely hope to hit 2500... And that's with one of the best 2h weapons in the game at the moment. I really think that 2h will need a substantial buff to keep up with DW DPS. even after the 3.0.8 changes.

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I think thats because you are blood spec, unholy 2h or even frost 2h can still put out more than 2500 dps.

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Q u o t e:


On par. It's tricky because for those classes to which we have given a DW option, it always comes to dominate. But we do want it to be an option for DKs. On live right now it doesn't feel like an option because it so overpowers the 2H style.



You wouldn't want to see me without it.

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I realize you may not be able to reply to this post, but I hope you get a chance to read it. Concerning the future of DW:

I personally hope in the future we could see a Blood DW spec be competitive. I love how a Blood 2h spec feels almost like a Combat Rogue in plate, but I prefer DW over 2h. Spamming spells and using a ghoul just feels strange for me, especially that we manage cooldowns within cooldowns as a DW spec now with our runes and Howling Blast (not to mention runic power).

I'm thinking that the developers wanted three different 2h specs as a main focus, and a DW "option" (pets+spell) if you did not want to 2h. I would really like to see the idea of a DW DK expanded upon the future, so that we're not basically stuck spamming IT and/or HB with a ghoul up.

Secondly, current implementation of DW is a little complicated to maximize DPS with. Something like a Blood specced DW DK would be nice; you have many more buttons to push to keep you occupied, but it would not be overly complicated and clunky.

Thanks for reading and replying to our posts and staying in touch with the community.

Edit: Chose my 80 DK for an avatar, but it's not updated yet.

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Q u o t e:


On par. It's tricky because for those classes to which we have given a DW option, it always comes to dominate. But we do want it to be an option for DKs. On live right now it doesn't feel like an option because it so overpowers the 2H style.



You wouldn't want to see me without it.

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but over nerfing it will only bring down DW too much, if doing 4k for every DK spec is the goal while other classes are doing 5k to 6k, there is a problem

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Q u o t e:

On par. It's tricky because for those classes to which we have given a DW option, it always comes to dominate. But we do want it to be an option for DKs. On live right now it doesn't feel like an option because it so overpowers the 2H style.

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Do you plan to address the DW scaling issues (from attack power)?
Or the fact that it gets more from "trash stats" like haste / arp etc (which are extremely hard to avoid atm)?

Just curious how you plan to achieve this..

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Q u o t e:


On par. It's tricky because for those classes to which we have given a DW option, it always comes to dominate. But we do want it to be an option for DKs. On live right now it doesn't feel like an option because it so overpowers the 2H style.



You wouldn't want to see me without it.

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Making Dual Wield builds on par with Two-Handed builds makes little sense in my opinion and here's why.

Dual Wield makes far more effective use of the Two-Hander trash stats such as haste for our spell GCD and hit-cap spill over for a few extra offhand strikes. Don't get me wrong they still aren't optimal stats to stack but they at least become noticeable DPS increases. So to bring DK Dual Wield on par you'd need to remove the additional benefits these stats give. A rather clunky solution given all dual wield classes make greater use of these stats that Two-Hand users typically shun.

Now lets assume you did manage to do this in such a way as to not spit in the face of your own established game mechanics and they are right on par with Two-Hand builds.
What's the point of dual wield now save for those who are dual-wield fasion victims?
You now have to find two weapons, are generally more gear reliant, are a lesser tank than your Two-Handed counterpart and blow chunks in PvP.

Bringing Dual Wield down to be just 'on par' for DPS would merely allow the two-hander builds to have their cake and eat it too.

Oh and I believe the current implementation of gargoyle on the PTR is bad, and that it should be made to scale directly to the DKs AP at all times, base damage and duration nerfs won't do much when you pop it during double or indeed triple procs of FC greatness and Mirror. It's still going to destroy people in arena. If I could be dev for a day I'd put the duration back up to a minute scale it directly to the DK and either disable it in arenas or have an alternate version of the spell in arenas ala guild wars.

Wait, GC is a gin guy?

I like him.

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Q u o t e:


Making Dual Wield builds on par with Two-Handed builds makes little sense in my opinion and here's why.

Dual Wield makes far more effective use of the Two-Hander trash stats such as haste for our spell GCD and hit-cap spill over for a few extra offhand strikes. Don't get me wrong they still aren't optimal stats to stack but they at least become noticeable DPS increases. So to bring DK Dual Wield on par you'd need to remove the additional benefits these stats give. A rather clunky solution given all dual wield classes make greater use of these stats that Two-Hand users typically shun.

Now lets assume you did manage to do this in such a way as to not spit in the face of your own established game mechanics and they are right on par with Two-Hand builds.
What's the point of dual wield now save for those who are dual-wield fasion victims?
You now have to find two weapons, are generally more gear reliant, are a lesser tank than your Two-Handed counterpart and blow chunks in PvP.

Bringing Dual Wield down to be just 'on par' for DPS would merely allow the two-hander builds to have their cake and eat it too.

Oh and I believe the current implementation of gargoyle on the PTR is bad, and that it should be made to scale directly to the DKs AP at all times, base damage and duration nerfs won't do much when you pop it during double or indeed triple procs of FC greatness and Mirror. It's still going to destroy people in arena. If I could be dev for a day I'd put the duration back up to a minute scale it directly to the DK and either disable it in arenas or have an alternate version of the spell in arenas ala guild wars.

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"Because I like dual wielding, it should remain better."


No, not a good reason. It should be a play style choice, with overall benefit being negligible.

Its what they are trying to do for Arms (2hand) as well, in comparison to Fury (DW) for Warriors.

Its just too bad for Enhancement Shamans that DW has far more focused talents than 2hand does.

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Q u o t e:



"Because I like dual wielding, it should remain better."


No, not a good reason. It should be a play style choice, with overall benefit being negligible.

Its what they are trying to do for Arms (2hand) as well, in comparison to Fury (DW) for Warriors.

Its just too bad for Enhancement Shamans that DW has far more focused talents than 2hand does.

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And combat daggers should be as viable as combat CQC or mutilate, because it's a playstyle choice, right? Right? Oh wait. The two specs will never be on par, DW will always be better for dks than 2h.

With the implementation of the PPM system for Killing Machine, I do not see a reason for the CD on Howling Blast. This will limit the number of crits from KM and the number of HB will be limited by the number of FU runes you have on a 10 second CD. Having HB on the CD does make rotations awkward as well as limits the ranged ability of the DK.
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Personaly I was wanting to be able to use it in a PvP setting where the DK is very potent agains kiting classes to offset my friends weakness to kiting. I can spam IT sure but the crit bonus damage is not as high as on HB and will lower my overall burst ability from range. It really makes no more since to have HB on a CD than Obliterate, SS, HS or FS.

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Q u o t e:


And combat daggers should be as viable as combat CQC or mutilate, because it's a playstyle choice, right? Right? Oh wait. The two specs will never be on par, DW will always be better for dks than 2h.

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What? Weapon choice (not type, i.e. swords, daggers, fist, axes, etc, ALL 1 HANDERS) of a specific talent spec is not the point here.

The equivalent for Rogues would be all 3 trees being balanced against each other. That isn't there quite yet, but that is the stated goal. Duh... moron. What other stupid analogies do you have?

I see nothing wrong with balancing 2hand damage against DW damage. Warrior specs had it balanced in BC. Arms 2hand did less than Fury DW dps, but had a raid wide buff to compensate.

What's all this retardism about "DW must be teh brest!"