I’m going to try to keep this as short as I can, but please understand that this is a sore wound I’m dealing with.

I do not like the idea of dual specs. I don’t like it because it’s a way of saying “you can’t tank unless you spec protection.” I find this incredibly disturbing because when WoTLK came out and the talent tree’s got a face-lift I read that even arms and fury could tank! That meant a lot to me. That meant instead of people criticizing my spec as I tanked, I could have my DPS spec AND TANK JUST AS GOOD AS ANYONE ELSE. And that Prot would be JUST LIKE arms or fury in that it did DPS just as well but in a slightly different way. I wanted to see Prot warriors rolling on DPS one-handers and Fury and Arms warriors rolling on two-handers.

The point is, I don’t want to switch my spec AT ALL. I want to be able to tank as ARMS in my own unique way! I have been spamming sunders too long to go back to that stupid tree and spam them again. I LIKE 1-second cooldown on rend, my thunderclap critting and making my opponents bleed as though I had consecrate, and to tame an entire group of people with bladestorm and retaliation. I loved it!
I don’t think that it’s a good idea at all to give up on the idea that all specs can tank. When it comes down to it, I have always believed that skill and gear are the things you need to tank well. I believe these two things are achievable and as long as that person wants to tank they should be able to without changing everything they they have built with their character. Putting on an entire different set of gear, being in a completely different stance or aura is enough of a change! Dual speccing will just force us to keep being the plaything of other people: getting rid of the 50gold cost is NOT the problem, the problem is that we just want to roll what it is we roll and have that be enough.

Please give me a reason to not be so upset about this. All I know is that I’m doing fine tanking 5-mans. In the raids I am the offtank (by choice) and in one raid I could bounce back and forth 5-10 times using a mod to switch my entire set of gear so that I’m tanking for one pull then dpsing the next pull. I LIKE IT THIS WAY! I, with one spec, can do what I love to do. Tank AND Dps. I don’t have to switch to main-tank. If I wana main-tank I just put on the gear and say, “guys I got this.” And people should understand. Its not a moment where people go “lol, ret paly thinks he can tank.”

Atleast if you implement Dual spec let it be because people want to experiment with two specs that just do things differently. Not because Arms fails at tanking any ‘serious’ content. Why tank a 5-man instance as arms if I KNOW that you implemented dual spec as a band-aid for arms not being able to tank but being ooook to tank 5mans. Again. Serious content is raiding which all of us dreamed to do when we made our warrior and said “I’m going to tank” and DPS’d our way through 60+ lvls of “go kill that and some more of that stuff that looks just a little different then the stuff you just last killed, oh and make sure you get a satchel full of its crap too I don’t know why I need it I just want to laugh at you when you get your hands dirty lol.”

I tried not to rant.
Sorry.
Blue help me out. Are you really saying Arms can’t tank above 5-mans? Are you saying in order for me to tank the biggest and baddest thing you have in the game that needs to be tanked… I have to roll prot to do it? I can’t be Arms?
You put so much work into getting us to tank in all specs, why give up –facepalm-
AAAUGH!!

I is sad panda express…

If you want to be suboptimal intentionally go ahead.

I have spent 1730 gold on talent tree respecs since 3.0. I, along with anyone who PVPs and raids, will appreciate dual spec.

The idea is not to be suppar its to be different but equal

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Q u o t e:
The idea is not to be suppar its to be different but equal

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but a non-protection warrior will always be a subpar tank.

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Q u o t e:
The idea is not to be suppar its to be different but equal

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Yes. Fury and arms should be different but equal DPS specs, in my opinion.

It is absurd to say that allocating talent points to talents that don't help tanking should result in the same quality tank as one min/maxed for mitigating damage.

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Q u o t e:
The idea is not to be suppar its to be different but equal

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And yet, if a dps warrior's tanking ability is equal to that of a protection warrior, why be a prot warrior?

You guys are dense >_<


I'm trying to put it this way

I want a RET paladin to be able to tank JUST AS GOOD as a PROT paladin. The difference in the way these two specs tank should (or can) be as different as a paladin tanking to a druid tanking.

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Q u o t e:
You guys are dense >_<


I'm trying to put it this way

I want a RET paladin to be able to tank JUST AS GOOD as a PROT paladin. The difference in the way these two specs tank should (or can) be as different as a paladin tanking to a druid tanking.

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yeaah...........

no.

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Q u o t e:
You guys are dense >_<


I'm trying to put it this way

I want a RET paladin to be able to tank JUST AS GOOD as a PROT paladin. The difference in the way these two specs tank should (or can) be as different as a paladin tanking to a druid tanking.

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You want a physical impossibility.

A DPS spec is NOT for tanking. A DPS spec will not have the mitigation/avoidance tools a tank has. If my guild told me on my Ret paladin to tank Naxx, I'd probably die laughing because it's that stupid an idea. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

And dual-specs can't come soon enough.

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Q u o t e:
And yet, if a dps warrior's tanking ability is equal to that of a protection warrior, why be a prot warrior?

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Thats an easily answered question. Why did somebody want to dps as a rogue and not a druid? Its the difference in taste between people. Prot warriors should be able to stack STR and CRIT and be able to shield slam the face off a mob just as good as his other warrior counterparts.

In the healing department. A rets holy light and flash of light can HOT, a Prot pally has 30% more effect from his crit heals. I thought these were little tallents that could shine very brightly if the player collected the right gear and applied himself, and suddenly you would have an outstanding healer that didn't have to roll holy.
and holy had enough spellpower and range on judgements to be really close to a mage-warrior hybrid and blast people from range with shocks and judgements and close in for some nice swordfighting.

Similar but different.
They do the same job, just differently.

its your taste that matters. I don't want to be crammed into this mold of what people/blizzard wants me to be it would feel more like a coffin than a mold.

so, a prot warrior and an arms warrior shoudl both be able to tank and dps equally ? just with different flavor?

The idea is that you will use dual specs such that you are always optimal for the job you're doing.

EDIT: If dual specs are a success, then it will not matter if Warriors are forced into Protection, because then they would always have an option to be Protection with no significant overhead.

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Q u o t e:
A DPS spec is NOT for tanking. A DPS spec will not have the mitigation/avoidance tools a tank has.

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And I believe during this entire game Blizzard has had problems with tanking from the beginning. There has always been one spec and one class that has always tanked and that is the protection warrior. Through time with tweaking Blizzard finally got Paladins and Druids to tank and tank well. Now they are telling atleast warriors that all three specs should be able to tank

It wasn't just until today when I read a blue post, that I realized they are just going to stop advancing in what I believe is a positive way of tanking advancement, and just put a band-aid on their failure to add more tanks.

I believe that you need gear and skill
not talent points gear and skill.

You can get asked "are you a tank?" even with my plan is in effect. because you can reply "I'm not geared for it."

Look
just HOLD ON a sec. -_-

I am merely stating an opinion here, an idea, you are free to disagree if you want. All I want is to find out what Blizzards reason is for NOT thinking the same way I and others do.

If the majority wants ridged character designs that lack flexibility that's fine. I'm pushing for new and interesting idea's.

I love to think of these idea's.

A tallent that increases the critical effect chance of all healing spells by 15% for prot paladins when they have devotion aura up which could make them want to spam flash of light to heal for a tremendous ammount giving them an edge in healing.

Ret paladins being able to Holy light which will heal over time and have an effect that says when your holy light crit heals it procs an instant flash of light, lasts for however seconds

Or ret, when you block dodge or parry an attack you have a 20% chance of regenerating 3% of your base health over 5 seconds, stacks 3 times. I'm really just making up idea's as I go here, I don't even know if they are balanced.

Arms warriors, your revenge skill strikes an additional target, revenge also would get some increase in threat.

fury, I think lacks aoe threat tallents. You could make slam hit like whirlwind(the number of targets not the damage) while in defensive stance, and give it high aggro.

Prot I think is more than capable of doing amazing dps if they stack their gear like an arms or fury warrior.

just think about it. Any tallent you see in any tree can be tweaked slightly to give you a unique edge in a different way.

Arms warriors bleed effects could cause high aggro as a side bonus for getting trauma
thats a great example.

I know I sound crazy, but, you see my opinion atleast.

new, interesting, unique idea's that make going down different tree's is like going down an entirely different class.
you tank, heal, and dps differently than your counterpart.

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Q u o t e:
EDIT: If dual specs are a success, then it will not matter if Warriors are forced into Protection, because then they would always have an option to be Protection with no significant overhead.

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As an offtank for a lot of my tanking career I can say that during an instance I have switched gear SO MUCH in such a small period of time it was a hassle. I about died of happiness when somebody showed me Item rack for the first time
And I could switch, on my old paladin, from tanking to dps to healing to pvp to rp gear set 1 and set 2

It was amazing.

Its great having my guild leader yell on vent "Baulk I need you tanking on this one, we are pulling now." And I click a button and say "Alright, throw up a mark, I got it." And I'm already charging and building threat.

We had a main tank that had bad connection problems. I threw on the gear, and main-tanked just fine.

on the bad times side? I've had a guild leader tell me, we need you to tank...so get a tank spec, get the tanking gear and meet us at MC.
I and one other tank in the group werent needed for any of the trash pulls, we were just there for a couple of bosses...we hacked away IN TANKING GEAR at the behinds of monsters and went...oh my this is fun, i'm doing like 26 damage per hit. And all of this is happening while ONE LUCKY GUY gets to tank and all the DPS characters around us are going "wow I just crit for a bajillion!" and everyone goes holy crap your good.
"Hey guys! I finally got enough rage to shield slam! It crit for 200!"
"lol, shazams a newb"

yea...good times.

Lol.....

Hi.

You can't tank above nonheroics as arms unless your group is very well geared and skilled.


I don't know what the bloody hell ever gave you the idea you could, or why you think you should be able to tank in a dps spec.

I mean hell, I'd like to be able to tank on my rogue, but I'm not having stupid-spasms about it.

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Q u o t e:


And I believe during this entire game Blizzard has had problems with tanking from the beginning. There has always been one spec and one class that has always tanked and that is the protection warrior. Through time with tweaking Blizzard finally got Paladins and Druids to tank and tank well. Now they are telling atleast warriors that all three specs should be able to tank

It wasn't just until today when I read a blue post, that I realized they are just going to stop advancing in what I believe is a positive way of tanking advancement, and just put a band-aid on their failure to add more tanks.

I believe that you need gear and skill
not talent points gear and skill.

You can get asked "are you a tank?" even with my plan is in effect. because you can reply "I'm not geared for it."

Look
just HOLD ON a sec. -_-

I am merely stating an opinion here, an idea, you are free to disagree if you want. All I want is to find out what Blizzards reason is for NOT thinking the same way I and others do.

If the majority wants ridged character designs that lack flexibility that's fine. I'm pushing for new and interesting idea's.

I love to think of these idea's.

A tallent that increases the critical effect chance of all healing spells by 15% for prot paladins when they have devotion aura up which could make them want to spam flash of light to heal for a tremendous ammount giving them an edge in healing.

Ret paladins being able to Holy light which will heal over time and have an effect that says when your holy light crit heals it procs an instant flash of light, lasts for however seconds

Or ret, when you block dodge or parry an attack you have a 20% chance of regenerating 3% of your base health over 5 seconds, stacks 3 times. I'm really just making up idea's as I go here, I don't even know if they are balanced.

Arms warriors, your revenge skill strikes an additional target, revenge also would get some increase in threat.

fury, I think lacks aoe threat tallents. You could make slam hit like whirlwind(the number of targets not the damage) while in defensive stance, and give it high aggro.

Prot I think is more than capable of doing amazing dps if they stack their gear like an arms or fury warrior.

just think about it. Any tallent you see in any tree can be tweaked slightly to give you a unique edge in a different way.

Arms warriors bleed effects could cause high aggro as a side bonus for getting trauma
thats a great example.

I know I sound crazy, but, you see my opinion atleast.

new, interesting, unique idea's that make going down different tree's is like going down an entirely different class.
you tank, heal, and dps differently than your counterpart.

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There should never be a spec that does "everything". Which is what you want to do. There are 3 primary roles: DPS, tank, and healing. Choose one.

In order to excel at one of these roles, you must give up the ability to excel in another role.

Rogues have only one job. They DPS. You get to pick your flavor of DPS based on your tastes.
I think all classes should be this way

Mages have one job, you DPS, pick your flavor
Warriors have two jobs, Tanking and DPSing, pick your flavor.

If Blizz is going to make arms and fury able to tank 5-mans AND they have in effect dual spec ...why in the world would you ever roll a 5-man instance with an arms warrior? The arms warrior is going to fully know they can tank the 5-man as their current spec ...but they would kick themselves in the head for not just simply changing to prot in order to 'do the job better'
which plainly makes blizzard look stupid for ever trying to make arms and fury able tot ank.

They went through the trouble of making arms and fury able to tank 5-mans, and I liked the direction they were going. I wanted more more more, I wanted them to keep tweaking, I thought they had an agenda of transforming the tree's even more.
To tank as arms you have to spike with prot to grab incite and imp thunderclap
To tank as Prot you have to spike into arms up to here for deep wounds
to tank as fury you have grab tactical mastery and imp thunderclap

BAH! I'm ranting again >_<

but if dual spec comes out it will just be how it is. Whatever, I'll deal with it.
everyone is pretty much saying "no its still the same as it was, bliz just wasted time so you can tank 5-mans not as good as prot can"

arms warriors and fury warriors DPS.

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Q u o t e:
There should never be a spec that does "everything". Which is what you want to do. There are 3 primary roles: DPS, tank, and healing. Choose one.

In order to excel at one of these roles, you must give up the ability to excel in another role.

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Very well put.
That is how we traditionally look at it, and the way I have looked at it for a long time.
I try to go against the flow, yes.

people are already wasting time and money getting the gear tallents and skills for tanking, dpsing, and healing.
Your talking to somebody who on their first character collected a decent set of gear for all three of those jobs and did well doing those jobs.

I had to pay money to cement the idea that "I can do anything."
And there are a lot of people just like me that can do anything. They just do A+B=C and they have everything required to do X Y or Z jobs.

There is just a loophole you have to run through in order to do this and i'm tired of this.
its tedious to do all these things! I just want things to be simple, and I really just enjoy being arms anyway and doing something 'different.' spamming my revenge instead of sunder, being unique and bladestorm tanking a group of trash as opposed to a whatever the heck prot has that does an aoe stun and dmg in a cone effect. some kinda stomp.

If I roll a paladin I can do all three of those jobs. It just takes time and money (hell of a lot of patience) and i'll get there. But I wish I could just freakin do what it is I want to do without running through all these little speed bumps. Its like sifting through the promo's in your mail instead of just getting important mail. Its like ...running from goldshire to lakeshire without a mount you will get there! just keep at it.
its like they are artificially extending playtime with boring stuff that doesn't need to be there. Oh I know you can Tank and DPS all in one class, but your going to have to collect all the gear, learn how to do it, and change your spec again and again and again and pay money for it and and (Arms/fury can tank 5-mans?....nah, doesn't help, waste of time)

Blizz, I just need to hear it from you guys.
I'm pretty sure I made my point.
just tell me where the game is going so I can stop this.

I am somehow believing that you intended all the things I've thought about, but now current events are telling me I misread everything.
I just want to know whats going on.

and I want to hear it from you.

be back in the morning.~

So does that mean that a bear-specced druid (me) should melee dps just as well as a cat-specced druid, nuke just as well as a Balance-specced druid, and heal just as well as a Resto-specced druid . . . just differently?


Uhhhh, no.