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Q u o t e:


Please, I've been prot since before 2.3. Everything I said was blunt but true. I'm not understanding where all the warrior frustration is, and every time someone shows numbers to the majority of warriors here they rant on about something else (Showing that with our 2% hp buff warriors are still ahead by a few hundred). Now we're complaining that our single target taunt with a little bit of damage and avenger's shield is OP. Its silly.


*edit for Chiv*
Half the pallies posting on these forums are as clueless as half the warriors half the druids half the dk's. There are mountains of useless threads here(by all classes) that the real issues are hard pressed to get addressed anyway.

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prot since 2.3... does than mean something?

you don't understand because you don't have the same issues. period. that's why it was suggested that you leave the thread. You don't understand, and are contributing nothing.

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Q u o t e:


On any encounter where you aren't required to tank, guess which tanking classes are far better?

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I always laugh at the irony in this: The better tank is the tank that is good at not being a tank.

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Q u o t e:
Other than the nerf to Deep Wounds, which is a blow to some of our dps?

Nothing regarding threat concerns
Nothing regarding lowest damage
Nothing regards to current standing on mitigation and health?

Do we really need to start posting WWS's and Spreadsheets of numbers to get your attention, I'd hate to start doing that, it's a royal pain in the tail.

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Were not exactly underpowered, I really cant notice anything underpowered about us atm.

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Q u o t e:


How about this: Block is a terrible mitigation mechanic for when survivability actually matters. Druids and DKs dont' have block, and have other advantages that scale far better against 25k+ hits (some of them magical damage).

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Which is why I have myself Mt'ing Patchwerk and the Druid and DK take hatefuls. Block is a great stat overall, which is the big picture. Is there another fight where we are talking about specific mitigation techniques in that large of a sum? Sarth with 3 drakes? You'll still need help anyway from a guardian spirit/hand of sacrifice/etc.

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Q u o t e:
Content is only going to get harder, and test survivability even more. If it's balanced to druid/DK levels of survivability, warriors and paladins will clearly be a bad choice; if it's balanced to warrior/paladin levels of survivability, druids/DKs will clearly be the best choice. If I were a paladin I'd be concerned as well.

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I'm not concerned. I find myself to be amazingly strong overall as a mostly naxx geared block-capped Paladin. I can mitigate great amounts of damage, have a decent enough health pool to survive, and have good enough emergency tools for any of the fights currently in the game. As content gets harder gear will scale more and the adjustments will be made to keep everyone on even keel. Its not like I'm going to be having the same block value as I do now in Naxx.

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Q u o t e:
It's the same story with offtanking DPS. Warriors and paladins require getting hit to fuel most of their damage, in one way or another. Druids and DKs don't. On any encounter where you aren't required to tank, guess which tanking classes are far better?

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If there isnt a tank required at all and we're maxing dps? Then I suppose your right and I'll use the dual spec to switch. If its a 1 tank fight, then why wouldnt you have the tanks capable of doing the most dps when not tanking dps and MT it yourself. We can't complain about how we will do against unknown fights in the future.

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Q u o t e:
Now, there are other concerns, and druids and DKs have their own set of concerns for sure. I don't mean to imply that they are the favored sons of the tanking classes and will always be the best choice.

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I honestly think both of those 2 classes have the biggest beef to say. They have been trying to lean away from having niche tanks and they still seem to be heading in that direction. Pallies and warriors both in my opinion are sitting far prettier than they are.

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Q u o t e:
I do mean to imply that the content so far is very easy and that tank balance doesn't really get a spotlight on it when that's the case. As things get harder, differences will become more pronounced, and we'll see how well the current scheme of things holds up.

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I 100% agree, hense I'm wondering why people are complaining about things that don't seem to be that much a concern. It seems like since Naxx is on farm people are looking way way way too deep into things to try and see if/how they are deficient.

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Q u o t e:
Simple. Because if you say you have ability X, and we don't have an ability Y to compensate for not having X, then we have to question how this is balanced. Which somtimes is something as simple as us having abilty G, while you don't have ability H.

This is the TANKING board. It isn't a board for one class of tank to only talk about their problems. It's a board for all tanks to discuss their concerns. If you only want to talk about problems that effect only your class, then there is another board for that.

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if the first point you make is true, you should roll warrior. this isn't a we want ability Y that paladins have thread. It's a class Y has issues with ability X that we possess. If you feel the need to join the thread and complain about how you WANT ability X, that's on you.

It is a Tanking board. Warriors are Paladins are both tanks. But that doesn' t mean you have to post in a thread that states:
"Re: Why nothing Blue regarding prot Wars" in the title, does it? you could ignore the thread and move on with your existence. Again.. your issue.

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Q u o t e:


prot since 2.3... does than mean something?

you don't understand because you don't have the same issues. period. that's why it was suggested that you leave the thread. You don't understand, and are contributing nothing.

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That was the famous help for pally tank patch, just giving the "i'm not a lolret through bc" response.

Honestly it seems like the only valid issue here is lowering the cooldown on heroic throw, which sure thing why not. I think Avenger's Shield is op because of all the frontload threat it has.

My point was more to the lines of do you even know what your complaining about. Cause it doesnt appear you do.

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Q u o t e:
Which is why I have myself Mt'ing Patchwerk and the Druid and DK take hatefuls. Block is a great stat overall, which is the big picture.

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For most of the "big picture", survivability is irrelevant. It's similar to your point that complaining about tank DPS on AOE trash zergs or situations where you're 200 DPS short of another tank is pretty silly. Touting block's effectiveness "overall" when most of the time it doesn't really matter what you're geared for is pretty weak. Yes, it's fine in heroics. It's *incredibly* good on Loatheb. DPS-specced warriors and deathknights can also tank most of that stuff in blues.

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Q u o t e:
Is there another fight where we are talking about specific mitigation techniques in that large of a sum? Sarth with 3 drakes? You'll still need help anyway from a guardian spirit/hand of sacrifice/etc.

I'm not concerned. I find myself to be amazingly strong overall as a mostly naxx geared block-capped Paladin. I can mitigate great amounts of damage, have a decent enough health pool to survive, and have good enough emergency tools for any of the fights currently in the game. As content gets harder gear will scale more and the adjustments will be made to keep everyone on even keel. Its not like I'm going to be having the same block value as I do now in Naxx.

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Well, it depends on your specific strategy for dealing with Breaths - some lean more heavily on cooldowns than other. But warriors and paladins *always* lean heavily on these. Druids and Death Knights can easily avoid that.

Yes, you're right, balance is fine for the content that exists. The content that exists is also very, very easy. The more content tests tank survival (for example, Patchwerk-25, Sarth+3), the more you start to see clear winners emerge. Difficulty will scale faster than gear - otherwise all the numbers would just get bigger, but stuff wouldn't actually get any harder.

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Q u o t e:
If there isnt a tank required at all and we're maxing dps? Then I suppose your right and I'll use the dual spec to switch. If its a 1 tank fight, then why wouldnt you have the tanks capable of doing the most dps when not tanking dps and MT it yourself. We can't complain about how we will do against unknown fights in the future.

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I haven't complained about how we'll do against unknown fights in the future. I've pointed out a trend - the more a boss tests your survivability, the better druids and death knights are. The more important it is for your tank (or offtank) to do high DPS, the better druids and death knights are.

I'll agree that dual specs is a potential solution to most of that second problem, but let's wait and see how (and when) it actually comes out before we make strong claims.

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Q u o t e:
I honestly think both of those 2 classes have the biggest beef to say. They have been trying to lean away from having niche tanks and they still seem to be heading in that direction. Pallies and warriors both in my opinion are sitting far prettier than they are.

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Shrug, they have their own concerns - Death Knight TPS and druid itemization in particular probably top the list. But for survivability (again, when survivability matters), they're leaps and bounds ahead of paladins and warriors.

I'm sorry but you're undervaluing block. Last night for example in Naxx I had block being 19% mitigation. Thats not insignificant by any means when we're(pallies) blocking 2000 damage every hit. Patchwerk shows me as 17.1% mitigated by block. "Where survival matters" is on boss fights. And I can mitigate just as well if not better (fast hitting mobs) on the majority of fights currently in the game, while my avoidance is basicially the same as a similarly geared (ilevel wise) druid or dk.

While I do think that eventually, prot warriors will get another review, I have to say this:

"Are you kidding?"

We just got the best changes ever in the state of the game, welcome fellow tanks to
"The Golden Age of Prot"

We got TONS of stuff in 3.x....enjoy it.

So sure, I am not top dps every raid....I am not below the healer's anymore.
If your ego is based off your dps, I suggest you try another pursuit.

They will get back to us, in due time.

Personally, I would rather have more gear options than anything else....getting tired of the homogeneity of tanking gear.

~Nailgun
"I tank, therefore I am"

Thanks for the reply Ghostcrawler - I know you guys are keeping a close eye on balance, but I really feel like the Sartharion breaths situations brushes up against the edge of "Wow guys, our paladin is dying every time Shadron's Disciple comes out, let's put the druid on Sarth this attempt okay?" I'm not saying *that* encounter breaks tank balance, but I'm saying that anything much harder than that skewed towards max HP/major cooldowns *will* break tank balance, and I'm a bit worried that one of the only ways to continue to scale tests for tank gear/survival is to make things harder than Sartharion.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sorry but you're undervaluing block. Last night for example in Naxx I had block being 19% mitigation. Thats not insignificant by any means when we're(pallies) blocking 2000 damage every hit. Patchwerk shows me as 17.1% mitigated by block. "Where survival matters" is on boss fights. And I can mitigate just as well if not better (fast hitting mobs) on the majority of fights currently in the game, while my avoidance is basicially the same as a similarly geared (ilevel wise) druid.

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No. I'm sorry, but tank survival is just not a serious concern on most of the boss fights in Naxxramas. Has your tank dying on Noth ever seriously been a concern? Did you spend a lot of time worrying about what suit you would wear while tanking Heigan? I'm guessing the answer is no.

Not every fight is focused on tank survival, just like not every fight is a DPS check. Of course you'd never want your DPS to just sit there and twiddle their thumbs any more than you'd want to put on your DPS suit to tank something, but realistically as long as those people are doing/wearing roughly what they're supposed to, everything's going to be okay. The 'challenge' of the fight is focused elsewhere (for example, on executing the dance correctly on Heigan, dispelling curses/controlling adds on Noth). And that's fine, not every fight should be about tank survival.

I have a 35%+ block set (which, for a warrior, is a lot of block). I'm aware that it's good in many situations. But most of the time I'm actually worried about living, it's time to take off the block pieces and wear some stuff that actually increases my HP and avoidance.

[quote
We haven't seen a ton of evidence that warrior threat or dps are much lower than the other tanks, but it is definitely something we monitor. We don't want to be in a situation where any of the tanking classes feels like the gimped class that nobody wants.
.[/quote]

You just have to look at the WWS of raiding fights to see how low Prot Warrior's DPS is. You guys are valuing this in isolation, but you forced WoW to be a group game, where people look at a player's (class) value as to what they can bring to the group.

Warriors don't have a lot of utility, and the fact that we used to be the best single target tank was the only thing that made us valuable, and we were willing to sacrifice the fact that we can't do DPS. Now that all tanks have that capability, we suddenly found that we have no niche anymore. And nothing a warrior can do that another class cannot cover.

We can't go back to the old ways, so we should just move on. It's just annoying that another tank class can sometimes do up to 100% DPS (compared to a warrior tank) on the same fight, and we can't do anything about it.

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Q u o t e:
We have four tank classes, and we want them to be roughly equal. I say "roughly" because I don't realistically think with different abilities and mechanics that their survivability, dps and threat generation are going to be identical in all situations. You may struggle a little more in certain situations and other tanks may struggle more in others. As long as you don't get to the point where the group starts wishing for another class to come tank, we're probably in a good spot.

We haven't seen a ton of evidence that warrior threat or dps are much lower than the other tanks, but it is definitely something we monitor. We don't want to be in a situation where any of the tanking classes feels like the gimped class that nobody wants.

All four tanking classes, as far as I can tell, still have a lot of fear that they will reach a point where they can't do the MT job. That is a totally understandable point of view. We just don't think we're at that point for anyone right now.

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I agree, that to me I don't think there is any big issues with tanks, when it comes to threat and mitigation. But I hope you guys don't think that means there is nothing to fix in any of the 4 tanking classes. I can name you a few talents in prot for paladins that could use a make over. And I'm pretty sure prot warriors would have a list of things as well.

Now I know you guys are busy with DPS classes and healing classes regarding Arenas. But I hope once you guys got that under control, you can start looking at fixing some issues with the tanking classes. For prot paladins it mostly has to do with the prot tree.

Doesn't matter which class you play as a tank, some have advantages over the others in some point but in the end, we are all good at something.

Personally I think I will be a good tank with any tanking class as long as I can get the gear I need and that I can lead my group with decent strategies.

A tank will always only be as good as the group who assist him and the healer who takes care of him :)

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Q u o t e:
And nothing a warrior can do that another class cannot cover.

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Outside of "not-needed to clear content" buffs that's true for every class. So we have Kings, BoW, BoSanc, Fort and Wild with no 100% equivalent buff right?

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Q u o t e:


I agree, that to me I don't think there is any big issues with tanks, when it comes to threat and mitigation. But I hope you guys don't think that means there is nothing to fix in any of the 4 tanking classes. I can name you a few talents in prot for paladins that could use a make over. And I'm pretty sure prot warriors would have a list of things as well.

Now I know you guys are busy with DPS classes and healing classes regarding Arenas. But I hope once you guys got that under control, you can start looking at fixing some issues with the tanking classes. For prot paladins it mostly has to do with the prot tree.

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You don't think any future fights like Malygos will put pressure on guilds to take prot paladins? :P Or are you saying this will be dealt with with the JoL fix?

Ideally I'd also like to see something done about DPS for both prot specs while not tanking. Cancelling RF or switching to zerker or battle stance don't really do anything for prot specs.

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Q u o t e:


Outside of "not-needed to clear content" buffs that's true for every class. So we have Kings, BoW, BoSanc, Fort and Wild with no 100% equivalent buff right?

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BoW should be covered by mana spring, and fort is covered by scrolls. So that's Kings, BoSanc's secondary effects, and Wild.

Personally, I don't have a problem with prot dps. My focus is generating threat. A good high threat rotation mixed in with the proper glyphs will help scale your TPS by quite a bit. DPS could be a concern, but it shouldn't be a tank's primary concern.

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No. I'm sorry, but tank survival is just not a serious concern on most of the boss fights in Naxxramas. Has your tank dying on Noth ever seriously been a concern? Did you spend a lot of time worrying about what suit you would wear while tanking Heigan? I'm guessing the answer is no.

Not every fight is focused on tank survival, just like not every fight is a DPS check. Of course you'd never want your DPS to just sit there and twiddle their thumbs any more than you'd want to put on your DPS suit to tank something, but realistically as long as those people are doing/wearing roughly what they're supposed to, everything's going to be okay. The 'challenge' of the fight is focused elsewhere (for example, on executing the dance correctly on Heigan, dispelling curses/controlling adds on Noth). And that's fine, not every fight should be about tank survival.

I have a 35%+ block set (which, for a warrior, is a lot of block). I'm aware that it's good in many situations. But most of the time I'm actually worried about living, it's time to take off the block pieces and wear some stuff that actually increases my HP and avoidance.

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Your point is the same as mine here. None of those fights have an advantage by having a Druid or DK tank. And on top of that you take less damage on those trivial (for tank survival) than a druid or dk would. So my point of overall us taking less damage and being better overall tanks (compared to druids and dks) while they have their niches on 1-2 fights is pretty valid. If the fight is Sarth why wouldn't you put a druid on him and other tanks elsewhere. It puts them more into the niche roll than anything in my opinion. How many Sarth +3 fights are there going to be through Icecrown? I would always want to have the tank who takes the less damage or can survive the best tanking.

As a note too, I'm not saying we should lose avoidance and should be wearing tons of block, I'm saying that even in avoidance gear we mitigate a ton of damage now, and that is significant to the raid overall.

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Q u o t e:
All four tanking classes, as far as I can tell, still have a lot of fear that they will reach a point where they can't do the MT job. That is a totally understandable point of view. We just don't think we're at that point for anyone right now.

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I don't see Warriors or Paladins having any worries about the future. DKs can be a bit nervous since they're still being tinkered with a bunch and 3.0.8 is making quite a few changes, which always makes people nervous. And for Druids, given that their Tier 7 is a pile of ArP/Haste and Poo, they understandably are worried that, in the future, they won't be able to get good enough gear to tank properly. (And seriously, was the dev drunk or something when he/she gave feral tier 7 a ton of ArP but no +hit?)

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Q u o t e:
Personally, I don't have a problem with prot dps. My focus is generating threat. A good high threat rotation mixed in with the proper glyphs will help scale your TPS by quite a bit. DPS could be a concern, but it shouldn't be a tank's primary concern.

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You're missing the point, now that TPS is (for the most part) trivial because of how much threat we generate, some situations demand that tanks put out decent dps, harder encounters like Sarth 3-D, achievements, even threat generation scales amazingly with tank dps as well.