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Q u o t e:


Deep Wounds only looks like it causes so much damage because every attack a Warrior crits on procs it.

It wouldn't look so overwhelming if you split it into Deep Wounds (White Swing), Deep Wounds (Blood Thrist), Deep Wounds (Whirlwind), Deep Wounds (Slam).

But it would be nice if Deep Wounds was nerfed and the damage made up in more interesting ways in both trees.

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I'm surprised this quote wasn't highlighted.
These are my thoughts exactly. With melee, HS, WW and BT all gaining Deep Wounds from crits, how can one be surprised that the combined total of all four categories equates to our second most damaging ability?
COMBINED total being a key idea.

Meh, I won't drag this further in the mud. The logic behind the nerf seems faulty.

PS- Ghostcrawler, my Deep Wounds ONLY exceeds melee during BUGGED, GIMMICKY fights. I didn't design the fight, please dont penalize my class for your silly boss mechanics.
PPS- My Heroic Strike often times out-damages my melee. On NON gimmicked fights. I didn't have to specialize into this move to learn it, I was born into WoW knowing it at the scrawny level of uno, and it would continue to out-damage my melee on those encounters even if I didn't glyph it, and even if I didn't have Imp Heroic strike.
Are you planning on nerfing HS?

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Q u o t e:
Minor fix.

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Sorry, I wasn't even considering that pre WoTLK abortion.

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Q u o t e:
PPS- My Heroic Strike often times out-damages my melee. On NON gimmicked fights. I didn't have to specialize into this move to learn it, I was born into WoW knowing it at the scrawny level of uno, and it would continue to out-damage my melee on those encounters even if I didn't glyph it, and even if I didn't have Imp Heroic strike.
Are you planning on nerfing HS?

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Kind of silly actually. I mean, I hope you realize that the majority of HS damage is just auto attack anyway. The +dmg (not that high for a 2h) and reduction in chance to miss as well as glance removal and is what makes it a yellow attack. And of course there's always the Impale addition.

I have calculated that even if I magically forget to put points into Deep Wounds, I would still be on top or on par, comparatively, with other classes in dealing damage (barring certain specs of hunters!). I think this change (whatever it would be) would hurt arms warriors more than fury warriors based on the recounts I have viewed of my fellow arms warriors (who always have a higher percentage of deep wounds damage, compared my other guilds fury warriors).

This nerf isn't coming as a surprise to me, I was beating fully epic'd (ilvl200) rogues in blues when I first started naxx 10, and as my gear has grown, I am usually anywhere from 300 to 1000++ DPS in front of other classes, depending on the fight.

So im happy if I see no buffs then and nerfs on them because otherwise shadow priests and locks witch are already lower rated top areans will suffer more ( we really on fear u know). Numbers don’t lie http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/player/

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Q u o t e:

This nerf isn't coming as a surprise to me, I was beating fully epic'd (ilvl200) rogues in blues when I first started naxx 10, and as my gear has grown, I am usually anywhere from 300 to 1000++ DPS in front of other classes, depending on the fight.

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That was a problem with the Rogue class in general being horribly broken, not Warriors being OP. Right now a good Fury Warrior will go back and forth with a good Hunter depending on the fights, but neither are too far apart in any case. HAT Rogues on the other hand are destroying everyone (hello bug that just coumpounds for every additional Rogue) in sight doing 1k - 2500 more DPS than the next highest. Once Rogues get fixed and still sit at the top, Warriors better be right behind them. We have exactly the same problems we've always had through the entirety of WoW and are even worse "viability" wise considering we don't have the Battle Shout crutch to fall back on any longer.

But of course now that Blizzard is trying to implement the super awesome "balance" (aka bland dance) plan that MASTERMIND_01 came up with the standings are going to be very liquid and completely chaotic. I wouldn't be suprised if at the end of Ulduar if the current "DPS ranks" are turned upside down with how random many of these changes are.

And no offense, but Naxx 10 doesn't really count for a good DPS comparison between classes. You are missing a ton of buffs, as are the rest of the DPS in your raid, both caster and melee and the mobs die very fast. I haven't taken any WWS of 10 man Naxx, but I wouldn't be suprised if the AC is different on the bosses as well. It's pretty close to just doing a 5 man Heroic...and no one but a BM Hunter (DK if there's a ton to AE continually) ever comes close to me no matter what the group makeup is. Things just die too fast.

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Q u o t e:


Sorry, I wasn't even considering that pre WoTLK abortion.



Kind of silly actually. I mean, I hope you realize that the majority of HS damage is just auto attack anyway. The +dmg (not that high for a 2h) and reduction in chance to miss as well as glance removal and is what makes it a yellow attack. And of course there's always the Impale addition.

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I was being fecetious. Don't discount a post's integrity just because someone is spitting out a silly ruse at the end.

I should have clarified that the 300 to 1000++ DPS figure I commented on was based on 25 man raid scenarios. I think that the comparison in 10 mans is still valid one (you are right in that the AC value of 10 man mobs is lower) as warriors are by far the most buff dependant class, and that my DPS was only going to further eclipse other members of the raid in 25 mans as the amount of raid buffs increased. Although THEIR position in relation to each other on the meters may change in 25 man scenarios; It did not change compared to mine and the other fury/arms warriors.

Certainly, based on my experiences in raids, I can still say that I totally saw this nerf coming, but this is more than likely due to the fact that there are no HaT specced rogues in my guild (all of which are competent players, with various specs), nor a Hunter that can even come close to my DPS (again related to spec and possibly skill.. my guild does not have a large hunter base). The average gap between me and some of the top rogues (I am specifically using rogues as an example, as they sit directly 2nd on damage in my WWS logs) on patchwerk is about 700 DPS. On fights such as KT this gap may be as little as 200-300 DPS.

I personally wouldn't be too upset even if the change to deep wounds was somehow 'gamebreaking' with the incoming WW glyph and soft cap reduction. Of course I wouldn't be happy, but I would be lying if I didnt see it coming and thought that it was not justified. Don't forget Hunters are soon to be hit with the nerf stick.

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Q u o t e:
fury warrior in my raid hits 9k deep wounds ticks regularly

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No.

No he doesn't.

He hits 9k deep wounds ticks regularly on THADDIUS, LOATHEB and MALYGOS.

He does NOT hit 9k deep wound ticks regularly on other fights. The fights don't even last long enough in Naxx to ramp up that far on a normal fight.

Patchwerk - too short
Grobbulus - have to move for the debuff making DW drop off
Gluth - too short
Noth - teleport makes DW drop off
Heigan - dance makes DW drop off
Razuvious - might be long enough
Gothik - teleport makes DW drop off
4H - LOL...yeah, DW drop off
Anub - swarm makes DW drop off
Faerlina - too short
Maexxna - Cocoon + web makes DW drop off
Sapphirron - ice bomb makes DW drop off
KT - might be long enough
Sartharion - movement + adds = DW drop off

The ONLY way to get to 9k ticks is to have a very high crit rate and/or damage modifiers and a very long fight.

The only time I've ever personally seen DW ticks that high was Loatheb (9577 max tick) and Thaddius (10323 max tick). Both of those have a damage/crit modifier. Of course I'm going to get rolling DW ticks on Loatheb when my crit rate is literally 95%.

Whatever happens, the obvious bug with deep wounds need to be fixed before any changes are made. Im sure Ghostcrawler can at least learn from previous mistakes ala master poisoner or other similar mistakes which destroyed classes.

Although I can see it now. Nerf deep wounds, then find out there is a bug, fix the bug, and deep wounds is back to 0-2% of total damage again.

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Q u o t e:
I think some people aren't reading the entire thread, because I said way back there somewhere....



We don't want to nerf Deep Wounds without increasing Arms damage in PvE and PvP to compensate. We have not made any changes to Deep Wounds so far.

I repeat: Deep Wounds is not a Thaddius / Loatheb issue. You can stop saying that now. :)

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Thaddius and Loatheb 'issue' is not the same. There is a distinct difference that you seem to either not know about, or ignore. Maybe its just a miscommunication. Are you aware of deep wounds double dipping on damage multipliers which leads to artificially inflated deep wounds damage across the board (on all fights) for fury warriors?

I also think a lot of the confusion is that your numbers dont accurately 'match up' with in-game numbers players see on fights other than Thaddius / Loatheb. Nor do your ideas of deep wounds producing more damage than auto attacks. It really is a bit confusing makes any kind of discussion on the topic 'difficult'.

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Q u o t e:
I think some people aren't reading the entire thread, because I said way back there somewhere....



We don't want to nerf Deep Wounds without increasing Arms damage in PvE and PvP to compensate. We have not made any changes to Deep Wounds so far.

I repeat: Deep Wounds is not a Thaddius / Loatheb issue. You can stop saying that now. :)

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Granted you haven't said it will be adjusted, just that it may, I have a couple questions.

For a decently geared Fury warrior with a good rotation DW on fights, ignoring the outliers, is between 15%-20%. I reviewed not just my own parses over the last week or so but many on WWS and this seems to be how it plays out For myself I find DW on stationary fights to avg around 16% and on mobile fights a little higher as your DW dot is ticking as you or the boss is moving. If DW is giving over 20%,once again ignoring the outlier fights, the warrior is not maintaining a proper rotation, missing cooldowns on BT,WW,Slam Procs and not using Heroic strike as a rage dump.

The feeling we are getting is that you think this is too much damage from DW. So where do you see DW coming in? 5% of damage? 10% 15%? What do you feel is the sweet spot.

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Q u o t e:
I think some people aren't reading the entire thread, because I said way back there somewhere....



We don't want to nerf Deep Wounds without increasing Arms damage in PvE and PvP to compensate. We have not made any changes to Deep Wounds so far.

I repeat: Deep Wounds is not a Thaddius / Loatheb issue. You can stop saying that now. :)

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I think everybody will agree that Arms PVE damage is too low. Our fury warriors getting 12k rolling DW is pretty silly also. I would hold on nerfing DW until you have the Arms buffs ready to go as well.

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Q u o t e:
I repeat: Deep Wounds is not a Thaddius / Loatheb issue. You can stop saying that now. :)

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It would probably stop getting said if it didn't sound like you were citing percentages of damage totals from Loatheb/Thaddius fights.

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Q u o t e:
Deep Wounds is causing too high a percent of damage for Fury and Arms, 20 or 30% of total damage on some fights, and often above white attacks. Since it is unmitigated damage we are eventually going to have balance problems here if we don't already.

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Especially note the bolded part.

Eg,

Patchwerk, TG Fury did 4991 dps, Swing 25%, HS 18%, Deep Wounds 17%.
Thaddius, TG Fury did 6822 dps, Deep Wounds 24%, Swing 19%, HS 18%.
Loatheb, TG Fury did 6811 dps, Deep Wounds 25%, HS 18%, Swing 18%.

Deep Wounds typically isn't above white attacks except on Thaddius and Loatheb. We can sit here and argue about whether 17% is a nice figure if you want, but anecdotally, it generally doesn't come in above swing unless there's some other factor at play. I would be really surprised and quite interested to see parses where deep wounds was coming in "often above white attacks".

In short, that little phrase is where it's all coming from.

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Q u o t e:


I think everybody will agree that Arms PVE damage is too low. Our fury warriors getting 12k rolling DW is pretty silly also. I would hold on nerfing DW until you have the Arms buffs ready to go as well.

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I have yet to see a Fury warrior rolling 12k on a fight outside Thaddius or even on Thaddius. GC already said repeatedly those fights are not the reason why DW may see a nerf.

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Q u o t e:
I think some people aren't reading the entire thread, because I said way back there somewhere....



We don't want to nerf Deep Wounds without increasing Arms damage in PvE and PvP to compensate. We have not made any changes to Deep Wounds so far.

I repeat: Deep Wounds is not a Thaddius / Loatheb issue. You can stop saying that now. :)

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Than what is the issue? The Fury Warrior community is telling you that besides those two bosses deep wounds is no where near 30% of our damage. I don't understand myself why a nerf would be instated other than those two encounters plus Malygos. Please elaborate.

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Q u o t e:
I

We don't want to nerf Deep Wounds without increasing Arms damage in PvE and PvP to compensate. We have not made any changes to Deep Wounds so far.

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Then would you please clue us in on what you are considering? We can all speculate till we are blue in the face and seeing red (rage pun not intended) but that will accomplish nothing. A previous post of yours stated that improvements to arms to compensate for DW would likely be beyond the scope of 3.0.8 so does that mean, if DW gets nerfed, we are likely not to see any buffs to other attacks for months?

In short, please answer the two questions;

1) What are you considering for arms spec to compensate for DW and our already lackluster DPS?

2) If DW does get nerfed, when are we likely to see these buffs? 3.0.8 or later?

Eagerly awaiting your response,
Grim

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Q u o t e:
I repeat: Deep Wounds is not a Thaddius / Loatheb issue. You can stop saying that now. :)

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Well, when you throw out 30% of a Warrior's damage coming from Deep Wounds, people will naturally think of those encounters first. Heroic Strike + Melee are still primary sources.

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Q u o t e:
I have yet to see a Fury warrior rolling 12k on a fight outside Thaddius or even on Thaddius. GC already said repeatedly those fights are not the reason why DW may see a nerf.

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Once you have more experience you will. The question is the problem really the fights stacked in DW favor (Mal / Thadd / Loeth ) or the ability itself that is the problem.

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Q u o t e:


Once you have more experience you will. The question is the problem really the fights stacked in DW favor (Mal / Thadd / Loeth ) or the ability itself that is the problem.

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Deep wounds is bugged. Bugged. As in there is a bug causing it to do more damage than it should be. Especially on Malygos/Thaddius.