World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Why nerf Deep Wounds?

Dinkadoo

Thorium Brotherhood

180. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 08:11:08 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Listen man. This is your character: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Dinka and this is your guild http://www.wowjutsu.com/us/nerzhul/ of which your guild Shadow Prophecy that hasn't even cleared 10 man nax and is 36th on the server. This is my characeter: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kael%27thas&n=Blikefire and this is my guild: http://www.wowjutsu.com/us/kaelthas/ of which we were third on our server but were not able to get the Maly fight down because of holidays.

I am the Warrior class leader of Profit. I can tank and dps. I love the Warrior class, been my 1st toon and still my main. Don't ridicule my knowledge or judge what kind of raid experience I have of which is abundant. I have been raiding since Vanilla WoW. I've done my research on wws lists and gained some info from other guilds on my server. Warrior dps is only top dps when and "only" when they outgear other classes. It should not be new to any Warrior that we scale high with gear.

When every1 has the same type of gear everything balances out (cept for Rogues but after their bug fix they will be where they should, at the top). Give me generated list(s) that has everyone equally geared and you'll find the Warrior sitting btwn 4-6 on average encounters (I say average because RNG has a way of scrwing up #s which isn't a bad thing but will give credit and misinformation to posters like you who don't understand it and will use it to their credit).

I can give you information that Locks or Mages out dps Rogues and Hunters but it wouldn't mean anything since they outgear the rest of the raid comp. No such thing as an op TG warrior. Scroll the forums and you'll see the OP pve dps topics about every class. In truth Pve dps is almost balanced and is looking to be as good as it could get for everyone.

Too sum it all up: Nerfing Deep Wounds is a dps decrease for dps Warriors and a major threat problem for Prot. Shouldn't go live without something to compensate.

First off, dude, that is not my toon. Nice try though, stick to trying to get your guild progressed and gearing up, detective work is not for you.

Secondly, as stated in my first line this post, as in previous statements, you said you were geared as was your guild, which gives you a fair idea of what dps looks like.
you sir, are sadly mistaken, a hodge podge mix of heroic, 10man, badge and pvp gear is NOT "geared" by any means.
Therefore you have not seen the OP damage that is TG at its utmost, just aint happening.

Oh and again, Blike, just cuz you got served earlier on in this discussion, ill throw you a bone.
thats not my toon, i play on whisperwind, my guild is top3 on the server, ranked quite highly in the US.

C'mon now, think i would roll around preaching on an alt with a similar name as a main toon with subpar gear in a underperforming guild.

25man naxx is srs bzns.

Lol, man up, stop grasping at straws here. deep wounds is OP, which is what made it an easy target, even TG warriors have come in this thread and admitted it, why can't you?
Denile is a river in africa, etc etc.

What is this "rogue bug fix" that will put rogues on top of the charts you speak of? It doesnt exist, all rogue bug fixes do nothing but lower their dps, gg you just proved you know nothing.

And to everyone saying "our deep wounds damage is only 30% on gimmick encounters, 20 or so % on average", are you guys really that dense or just skimming through this thread?
Ghost crawler said "20, sometimes 30%"
What part of that translates in to "always doing 30%"?

I'm done trying to hold an argument with someone who knows not what he speaks of, just sadly grasps at any chance to keep his class from getting one of their most OP talents nerfed.

good night Blikefire, can't really say its been fun but i'll pretend.

Deekon

< Bloodrite >

Thorium Brotherhood

182. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 08:22:54 AM PST

12k Bleed ticks WOOOOOOoo!

"Holy hot-spanking bakesale, batman!" Stalfos - Thorium Brotherhood

Tornblade

< Minion >

Silvermoon

183. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 08:26:27 AM PST

Q u o t e:
12k Bleed ticks WOOOOOOoo!

You're right. We shouldn't be getting quite that high of DW ticks.

That damage needs to be moved to somewhere else that we can control.

Just say no to PuGs.

Gertrudes

< Infernal Affairs >

Moonrunner

184. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 08:27:13 AM PST

Since Slam! is a buff procing from the Bloodsurge talent, would it be possible to make Slams that are used under the effect of the Slam! buff to no trigger the GCD?

Elryk

< Hated >

Ghostlands

185. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 08:28:08 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Since Slam! is a buff procing from the Bloodsurge talent, would it be possible to make Slams that are used under the effect of the Slam! buff to no trigger the GCD?

A good idea, personally I would rather they have their rage cost removed

Varagar

< Forty Two >

Ysera

186. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 08:30:46 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Deep Wounds is causing too high a percent of damage for Fury and Arms

I didn't read the thread, but this is also going to significantly lower my Prot DPS. Once I specced into Deep Wounds, I went up by a good 10% (150 DPS or so). Are you going to shift that DPS somewhere else then, because you're also gimping my TPS as a result.

Thanks,
-Varagar

Fanstein

< Noob Explosion >

Anub'arak

187. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 08:37:19 AM PST

I'm not really concerned with the cost of slam. It's one of our cheaper abilities, and has a good damage per rage ratio.

Overlapping GCD's are definitely going to be a problem. Extending the duration of the Slam! buff could help us fit it in, but that could just increase the number of wasted procs of the ability.

And on a side note, I've seen tanks getting 20k shield slams no problem on Thaddius, maybe we should look into that too. lulz

Rashomon

< Napoleon Complex >

Rexxar

188. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 08:50:58 AM PST

I agree with skdall in my concerns particular with the thaddius/malygos deal. I noticed that on my very first malygos attempt as arms where deep wounds was 50% of my damage. Theres definately a bug there where the damage buff is being applied twice.
Saying "Deep wounds is unmitigated damage' is a pretty ignorant statement too. As deep wounds' damage is directly based off a percentage of the initial hit that procs it, which is itself mitigated by armor. Having deep wounds be effected by armor would essential be the exact opposite of the thaddius/malygos scenario. I know it was never said that this would be the fix but I'm just using it as an example.
People who think that deep wounds is OP I don't think are aware that if you land a 15k sudden death crit and get that phat deep wounds proc and then immediately after get a 3k damage gimp crit, the deep wounds proc from the latter, lower damage crit, completely overwrites the preexisting crit's proc. Deep wounds is consistantly about 15-18% of my damage on boss fights as arms or fury. for a class that relies on ... what? 3 attacks where MS, bloodthirst, and whirlwind have cool downs that dont make them viable for total raid damage percentages, 15-18% doesnt seem very askew.

And as for the proposed 'fury buff'.... what? Titans grip losing its miss chance? Big whoopie doodle. Any fury warrior worth their salt has knocked yellow misses off their charts eons ago. The only people this is going to effect are arms wars who have insignificant hit rating and pick up their second 203 dps 2hander and want to try fury. Established fury warriors arent going to notice this buff at all. If theres another fury buff (besides the ww glyph change) I'm unaware of it and if its totally awsome, I stand corrected. But as things are this sounds like an inc crowbar to the knee :\

Nubstar

< Resolve >

Korgath

189. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 09:00:40 AM PST

For Fury DPS: If deep wounds is going to get dramatically nerfed why not let warriors use rend in berserker stance.

For Arms DPS: I don't know what to tell you guys... I only know of one arms warrior on our server who does good dmg, and he always has the best gear first, but even he is fury now after being arms since the beginning of TBC. I know some people are die hard arms fans, but

If blizzard is trying to make our dps lower by nerfing deep wounds to prevent future problems as said by ghost crawler ("GC - we are eventually going to have balance problems") then allowing rend in berserker stance to bring our dmg back up that is lost by deep wounds might help.

Shinde

< Forsaken Order >

Emerald Dream

190. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 09:02:20 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Since it is unmitigated damage we are eventually going to have balance problems here if we don't already.

Kind of how Paladin holy damage and Death Knight diseases that currently go right through armor will have to be balanced too then?

EDIT: I should clarify that my comment above honestly had to do more with PvP than anything. These days warriors are the only class that deals purely physical damage, so any advantages plate might have in that context is limited at best. Even rogues now deal significant poison damage, and can bleed right through armor anyway.

[ Post edited by Shinde ]

"Playing a warlock is like getting blown by a midget whilst riding a chocolate rollercoaster on the MOON!"

-Woahlock

Gertrudes

< Infernal Affairs >

Moonrunner

191. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 09:04:56 AM PST

Q u o t e:

A good idea, personally I would rather they have their rage cost removed

Rage isn't really the issue, it's losing dps because of GCD's colliding.

Stormhole

< Eternal Reign >

Lightbringer

192. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 09:07:25 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Lol, its 19%.

1% higher then what I stated.

Anyways, if you would quit your non-reading of posts you would have read that I actually support a nerf now, as I agree it will be scaling a bit too well in the future. I am mostly here just curious how severely it is going to nerfed.

Edit: Also, looking at your WWS I see a mage without a 226 weapon and quite a few upgrades available who is about 100 dps behind. I'm curious whether Alexandrra will keep up #1 considering his set looks fairly close to maxed out already.

The mage in http://wowwebstats.com/mfi6szzxudgu1?s=131250-160242 isn't a hybrid, the warrior is the only one up there with the pures ( only other hybrid class which can pull this off atm is a DW DK ).

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

193. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 09:15:13 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Im seeing a lot of posts about the Deep Wounds nerf. I love my warrior a lot and this does indeed worry me. I searched patch notes on World of Raids And MMo Champion and read a thread about it on Tankspot etc etc. I can't find any numbers. Is there no numbers for it yet or am I just totally oblivious.

Let me back up here. We have not nerfed Deep Wounds yet. We are talking about it. Players saw a nerf to Sudden Death and asked why we would nerf Arms without nerfing Fury, since Fury seems to be dominating Arms in PvE and Arms is not dominating Fury in PvP (not that we want one or the other tree to be the PvE or PvP tree anyway). I responsed that we wanted to adjust dps warrior dps by making Deep Wounds less of an overall contribution of warrior dps, buffing Arms in PvE and possibly PvP, and either keeping Fury the same or slightly nerfing them for PvE.

Longer term, I think the real key to fixing some Arms (and Fury) issues is to take a hard look at stances. But those are beyond the scope of 3.0.8.

Q u o t e:
They're basing 20-30 percent off encounters like Thaddius/Lotheb/Malygos where you get ridiculous damage buffs as parts of the encounter

Some of you keep saying that, but we actually do understand how the encounters work. We made them, remember? :) Several other warriors are telling you it is a large percentage of their damage on all fights, not just the ones with unusual buff mechanics (upon which it is even larger).

Q u o t e:
Ghostcrawler this nerf will hurt most warrior tanks too.

It will hurt a lot of them, though honestly their dps seems pretty decent and nobody is having trouble on threat. We will compensate Prot if we need to. Deep Wounds should not be a "mandatory" talent for Prot, though honestly this conversation did not start because of Prot.

Q u o t e:
This. It's pretty obvious to me that Deep Wounds presents a serious scaling issue that will prevent any real warrior changes in the future. Honestly Titan's Grip is still hugely OP, scaling wise, even after the Deep Wounds change

This is our POV on both talents. We suspected TG would be too good, and resisted changing in for a long time in despite of so many claims that Fury would never be able to compete with the hit penalty on it. At this point we are going to just balance around TG rather than nerf it.

Q u o t e:
However you are wrong saying that fury gets "two buffs" in the patch.

I was referring to TG losing the remainder of its penalty and the WW glyph. They are minor buffs to be sure, but I think many players are scratching their heads about why we would nerf some of the top damage-dealers but buff Fury. The answer is that we aren't done yet.

This is where someone cheerfully says “You should buff everybody because that’s more fun.” Suffice to say inflation is a real issue if we only ever crank numbers upwards.

Gumblicious

< Phalanx >

Arthas

194. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 09:36:22 AM PST

we'll wait and listen.

Hopefully there is more the crab has yet to tell us.

Forum Rule #1: Read more, post less is the way to not looking like an idiot.

Kinthral

< Tastes Like Justice >

Arthas

195. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 09:45:38 AM PST

Q u o t e:

How could you compensate? Seeing that is a Huge total of our DPS in some encounters.

If you're compensating the direct damage attacks 20-30% won't that just create a more bursty PvP situation again?

[ Post edited by Kinthral ]

Most of the people who are enjoying this style of arena would probably not be able to convey their enjoyment with typed words in a legible manner.

Charsi

< Critical Mass >

Stormrage

196. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 09:49:44 AM PST

They could put it on an ability that is more akward to use in PvP because you have to stand still and cast it.

Like Slam.

Charagon

< Reigning Maelstrom >

Maelstrom

197. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 10:01:36 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I responsed that we wanted to adjust dps warrior dps by making Deep Wounds less of an overall contribution of warrior dps, buffing Arms in PvE and possibly PvP, and either keeping Fury the same or slightly nerfing them for PvE.

Then understand that if you nerf Deep Wounds, you nerf Arms TWICE. Once for our personal DPS and once for our raid contribution through Trauma

Please take that into consideration when you buff Arms. Actually, that's another very important question.

GC: Are you going to nerf Deep Wounds and then let us sit gimped for months before compensating, or will there be buffs to go along with the nerfs?

Taugosz

< Sad Panda >

Smolderthorn

198. Re: @GC.. Why nerf Deep Wounds? 01/09/2009 10:10:02 AM PST

Q u o t e:

I was referring to TG losing the remainder of its penalty and the WW glyph. They are minor buffs to be sure, but I think many players are scratching their heads about why we would nerf some of the top damage-dealers but buff Fury. The answer is that we aren't done yet.

To be honest, the TG change doesn't mean anything. We'll still use 300+ hit for rage generation, and in my case, simply because the gear I have has that much hit.

If you want to help Arms out, please take a look at the weapon specs. I prefer the Arms playstyle for raiding, but sword spec is so anemic, I can't use my Armageddon and do worthwhile damage.

Another possibility (if it's workable) would be to allow Overpower to proc on a percentage of attacks equal to what your Expertise reduces your chance to be dodged. Not sure if that makes sense, but say I have -6.5% chance to be dodged, give my Overpower a 6.5% chance to proc on all attacks. We have 7 talent points invested in OP, and it's still not a huge amount of total damage.

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