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Q u o t e:
I don't get it... He asks for people to communicate... If he didn't like what I was saying... Shouldn't he have ignored me? Deleted or locked my post?

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You deliberately misquoted GC to provoke him into a response... eg, you trolled him.

So, he trolled you back.

Enjoy your just desserts.

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Q u o t e:


Sure, but then the other classes have something they are best at and the priest does not. So we're supposed to be happy with consistently being 2nd best and be happy we get brought along at all?

Either Blizz does what it says it wants to and equalizes matters so that nobody is always in 2nd (or 3rd place) or they give each healing class a specialization that really allows them to shine. Right now neither goal has been accomplished because priests aren't best at anything and aren't healing overall as well as other classes either.

I think GC telling us we're a great 'fill-in' healer is crap. If that's really the vision for the class, it's a sad state of affairs. Priests heal. By and large, as a class, that's all we do. Our dps - outside of those who spec shadow - is crap. We have some utility and specialized crowd control, but our primary purpose in the game is to heal. To have that nerfed to the level of being a benchwarmer for the other healing classes is disappointing indeed.

(and I'm not talking about the CoH nerf, I mean the nerf to the hps of the class as a whole)

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No one starts a toon to be the gap filler. No one starts a toon to be second best. No one starts a toon to fill in a spot when the people that should be filling it are not on.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that to many jack of all trades is the worst thing that could happen to priest? I would hope every class has a role in the game and not just some gap filler role.

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Q u o t e:


No one starts a toon to be the gap filler. No one starts a toon to be second best. No one starts a toon to fill in a spot when the people that should be filling it are not on.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that to many jack of all trades is the worst thing that could happen to priest? I would hope every class has a role in the game and not just some gap filler role.

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Agreed and signed.

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Q u o t e:
No one starts a toon to be the gap filler. No one starts a toon to be second best. No one starts a toon to fill in a spot when the people that should be filling it are not on.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that to many jack of all trades is the worst thing that could happen to priest? I would hope every class has a role in the game and not just some gap filler role.

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Do not mistake flexibility for inadequacy.

On the subject of CoH, /facerolling CoH when raid damage hit took no skill. I think the CoH/WG nerf is a bit too far in the other direction. I will agree that it's easier to do the strong nerf up front (then buff) rather than progressive nerfs.

Perhaps a 3 second cooldown would be better, or imposing an increasing cast time mechanic on on CoH. As many others have pointed out this really only leaves Priests with PoH, which is group bound - encouraging a mechanic (group stacking) that Blizz said is done and dusted.

Priests aren't really jack of all trades anymore in anycase. With renew scaling badly and CoH being nerfed we've actually become far less capable of handling roles that don't involve spamming direct heals.

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Q u o t e:


No one starts a toon to be the gap filler. No one starts a toon to be second best. No one starts a toon to fill in a spot when the people that should be filling it are not on.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that to many jack of all trades is the worst thing that could happen to priest? I would hope every class has a role in the game and not just some gap filler role.

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this ^

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Q u o t e:


I had this discussion with some of the priests and druids in my guild.

I posed a simple question:

Do you really want to see raid content designed to challenge WG and CoH with no cooldown? Do you know how annoyingly high that raid damage will be? Do you know how impossible that content would be without an having a great deal of priests and druids? Do you recognize what this would mean for Discipline priets, resto shamans, and holy pallies?

My simple answer is, I don't want fights designed around overpowered mechanics.

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Are you talking about CoH in it's current state? An absurdly overpowered state? Or are you talking about the CoH of old that was a party heal out of the priests party?

Since Circle of Healing was a Party heal there have been several AoE healing spells added to the game:

Becon of Light
Holy Light Glyph (the new one will be amazing)
Wild Growth

I personally don't want Raid healing designed around the current state of Circle of Healing. The spell is absurd. I want raid healing built around the old NON-SMART Party only heal that CoH used to be. That spell was fantastic. It was not usable in all circumstances, but it had it's moments where it shined. When it did not, then i simply used my other tools. However a 6 second Cooldown Smart heal requires no thought in use (unlike the old CoH), and it simply can't heal a raid when it is taking even the damage we see in raids today.

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Q u o t e:
I personally don't want Raid healing designed around the current state of Circle of Healing. The spell is absurd. I want raid healing built around the old NON-SMART Party only heal that CoH used to be. That spell was fantastic. It was not usable in all circumstances, but it had it's moments where it shined. When it did not, then i simply used my other tools. However a 6 second Cooldown Smart heal requires no thought in use (unlike the old CoH), and it simply can't heal a raid when it is taking even the damage we see in raids today.

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I agree - I would rather have the old mechanic back, rather than this nerf.

But, Blizz has said they don't want to continue the party-stacking-within-a-raid mechanic of Vanilla and BC, so I doubt this is an option.

I would enjoy hearing a blue talk about what the options are, and where the raid healing mechanic goes from here.

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Q u o t e:


No one starts a toon to be the gap filler. No one starts a toon to be second best. No one starts a toon to fill in a spot when the people that should be filling it are not on.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that to many jack of all trades is the worst thing that could happen to priest? I would hope every class has a role in the game and not just some gap filler role.

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Whats odd is paladins and druids suffered from this at a class level pre-TBC. They realized the model was not going to work and quickly changed it - so now some of the top tanks are druids, paladins - top healers ... again ... top dps ... DING! top PvP DING DING!!

So why make priest healers suffer under this "already proven to be wrong" model.

Edit: And what is the deal with the holy light glyph. Why more OP for paladins? We may QQ more but apparently they QQ more effectively as you address their issues.

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Q u o t e:


No one starts a toon to be the gap filler. No one starts a toon to be second best. No one starts a toon to fill in a spot when the people that should be filling it are not on.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that to many jack of all trades is the worst thing that could happen to priest? I would hope every class has a role in the game and not just some gap filler role.

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To be frank, I very much doubt most people started their characters with the goal of filling specific current role in end-game raids.

For example, most people I have met did not start Paladins to be tank healers. Heck, most did not start Paladins to be healers at all. I certainly didn't. I played my first entire barely ever healing anyone at all. 3 years of healing later, here I still am through the ups and downs (and faction change, obviously)

For Priests, I suspect most people did roll them indeed to be a healer. This "gap-filler" talk is only what gets bandied about on the forums. Once you're in game and standing in front of an angry boss with your comrades at your side, your not a "gap-filler": you're a healer, which is what you wanted to be.

I have never, ever heard (outside of the forums) any sort of talk like "Oh, ok we'll take him because we need a gap filler". It's always "we need a tank/healer/dps. Who wants to go? Are you geared for this content? Have you read up on the fight? Yes let's take him because he's a good player. No, he needs more gear first."

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Q u o t e:
Honestly, I think you are focusing too much on the role of the priest, or even what you think we think of the role of the priest is. I think players do that a lot for all classes, but it also can freak them out because they are trying to reconcile these mushy philosophical ideas with the reality of numbers and buttons.

Don't ask the chef "What are you trying to accomplish with this meal?" See if you enjoy the food. If it's too salty or the desert plate is empty, bring that up.

Focus on the priest's tools. Focus on the situations where you can't be effective. Don't, IMO, focus on whether or not the spells we gave you satisfy what we intend for them to to do.

One of the best things I got out of all of the CoH nerfing discussion was players pointing out where they thought Renew (maybe it needs to benefit from more talents), Binding Heal (maybe it's too expensive) or PoH (fill in the blank) might be falling short. That's good stuff.

If you enjoy your priest, keep playing your priest. If you don't like their spells, maybe try out a different healing class. I'm sorry for those players who only played a priest because they loved Circle of Healing and won't anymore, but that's going to happen if you fall in love too much with one spell and not the whole package.

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People are focusing on the priests tools and telling you, compared to the tools of the other healers, the priests don't bring anything "extra" to the table. Brez, blessings, totems...there is nothing you gain by having 2 priests in the raid.

Priests are saying "we need a tool that makes people want to bring us as much as a Pally/Druid/Shaman."

As to your last point, I've played this priest since Vanilla WoW. I've been a healer and shadow. While I'm shadow currently, I do enjoy playing my priest and I keep an eye on healing.

How dare you say I played this priest and enjoyed him only for CoH? CoH wasn't even a dream when I started enjoying this priest. I healed in TBC before anyone cared about CoH. People aren't enjoying their priests because of CoH...they are getting RAID spots because of it. People are worried they won't get their raid spots (the reason they enjoy your game) because now the tool raid leaders took a priest for is gone. All other things being equal, the priest will be the fourth choice as a healer. That is very tough to swallow for anyone.

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Q u o t e:

One of the best things I got out of all of the CoH nerfing discussion was players pointing out where they thought Renew (maybe it needs to benefit from more talents), Binding Heal (maybe it's too expensive) or PoH (fill in the blank) might be falling short. That's good stuff.

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Please...buff Renew and Binding Heal. Renew should be a staple of the Priest class, and yet a lot of people look at it with distaste because it is too expensive and doesn't have enough synergy with other talents. Same with Binding Heal--an ability that can proc to make it instant or free (like Flash Heal) would be fantastic.

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Q u o t e:


People are focusing on the priests tools and telling you, compared to the tools of the other healers, the priests don't bring anything "extra" to the table. Brez, blessings, totems...there is nothing you gain by having 2 priests in the raid.

Priests are saying "we need a tool that makes people want to bring us as much as a Pally/Druid/Shaman."

As to your last point, I've played this priest since Vanilla WoW. I've been a healer and shadow. While I'm shadow currently, I do enjoy playing my priest and I keep an eye on healing.

How dare you say I played this priest and enjoyed him only for CoH? CoH wasn't even a dream when I started enjoying this priest. I healed in TBC before anyone cared about CoH. People aren't enjoying their priests because of CoH...they are getting RAID spots because of it. People are worried they won't get their raid spots (the reason they enjoy your game) because now the tool raid leaders took a priest for is gone. All other things being equal, the priest will be the fourth choice as a healer. That is very tough to swallow for anyone.

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DING DING DING!!

Yeahbecause riding the bench no matter how skilled you are and how much work /effort you have put into your toon absolutely sux.

Also I NEVER made this toon because of COH, in fact COH wasn't even in the game when I made this toon. I made this toon because it was a VALUBLE RAIDING CLASS!

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Q u o t e:
Honestly, I think you are focusing too much on the role of the priest, or even what you think we think of the role of the priest is. I think players do that a lot for all classes, but it also can freak them out because they are trying to reconcile these mushy philosophical ideas with the reality of numbers and buttons.

Don't ask the chef "What are you trying to accomplish with this meal?" See if you enjoy the food. If it's too salty or the desert plate is empty, bring that up.

Focus on the priest's tools. Focus on the situations where you can't be effective. Don't, IMO, focus on whether or not the spells we gave you satisfy what we intend for them to to do.

One of the best things I got out of all of the CoH nerfing discussion was players pointing out where they thought Renew (maybe it needs to benefit from more talents), Binding Heal (maybe it's too expensive) or PoH (fill in the blank) might be falling short. That's good stuff.

If you enjoy your priest, keep playing your priest. If you don't like their spells, maybe try out a different healing class. I'm sorry for those players who only played a priest because they loved Circle of Healing and won't anymore, but that's going to happen if you fall in love too much with one spell and not the whole package.

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Thank you GC. I appreciate your time taking to respond to this thread rather than simply troll it.

Really that is what I am doing in this post. I am focusing on situations where I cannot be effective... And that new situation will be raid damage. I know my class well enough to know that in heavy raid damage situations I will be all but ineffective. If your intention is to not have CoH be our go to spell for raid healing (which is what this nerf will do), please consider any of the numerous options out there. Please don't let 3.0.8 hit without a counter balance. The options are numerous, but letting this change happen without fixing the problems it will create will leave the Priest class very lackluster in 25man raid content until they are fixed.

I love my priest. There is a reason I am asking for fixes now... Because I don't want to play a broken class once again for months at a time (just like at the beginning of Burning Crusade before the Buffs to Spirit and CoH).

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Q u o t e:
People are focusing on the priests tools and telling you, compared to the tools of the other healers, the priests don't bring anything "extra" to the table. Brez, blessings, totems...there is nothing you gain by having 2 priests in the raid.

Priests are saying "we need a tool that makes people want to bring us as much as a Pally/Druid/Shaman."

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What extras do you get for bringing 2 holy paladins? Unless you brought 0 other paladins, there's really not much of anything to point to.

There's no bonus value to the second healing priest, but I think that's true of all the healers now. I mean, maybe you get an extra innervate or an extra mana tide if you brought 2 druids or 2 shammies, but neither of those are effects like the old stackable bloodlust that would alter your raid composition.

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Q u o t e:

For Priests, I suspect most people did roll them indeed to be a healer. This "gap-filler" talk is only what gets bandied about on the forums. Once you're in game and standing in front of an angry boss with your comrades at your side, your not a "gap-filler": you're a healer, which is what you wanted to be.

I have never, ever heard (outside of the forums) any sort of talk like "Oh, ok we'll take him because we need a gap filler". It's always "we need a tank/healer/dps. Who wants to go? Are you geared for this content? Have you read up on the fight? Yes let's take him because he's a good player. No, he needs more gear first."

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On your first point - yes - I rolled to heal. And of course in the heat of a fight I stick to my assigned role and adapt in the case of an emergency. However - you as a paladin are more important to making that event close than I am as a priest. My slow big heals are smaller than your fast big heals. My inefficient mid range heal is a joke compared to yours. Your ability to return mana blows mine away. You have to be at the raid!! Priests are optional.

On your second point - in context to a raid you need a tank healer (paladin) - AoE healer shaman and Hot/properly designed gap filler - Druid. This is all post CoH nerf but I am seeing it now - Guilds are planning around the upcoming nerf. People are posting for "need healer for Naxx - strongly prefer Shaman" or druid or paladin. Never priest.

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Q u o t e:
Honestly, I think you are focusing too much on the role of the priest, or even what you think we think of the role of the priest is. I think players do that a lot for all classes, but it also can freak them out because they are trying to reconcile these mushy philosophical ideas with the reality of numbers and buttons.

Don't ask the chef "What are you trying to accomplish with this meal?" See if you enjoy the food. If it's too salty or the desert plate is empty, bring that up.

Focus on the priest's tools. Focus on the situations where you can't be effective. Don't, IMO, focus on whether or not the spells we gave you satisfy what we intend for them to to do.

One of the best things I got out of all of the CoH nerfing discussion was players pointing out where they thought Renew (maybe it needs to benefit from more talents), Binding Heal (maybe it's too expensive) or PoH (fill in the blank) might be falling short. That's good stuff.

If you enjoy your priest, keep playing your priest. If you don't like their spells, maybe try out a different healing class. I'm sorry for those players who only played a priest because they loved Circle of Healing and won't anymore, but that's going to happen if you fall in love too much with one spell and not the whole package.

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I like the varying types of heals we have. I don't like feeling like I'm tied to gimmicks because the developers really are in love with them, no matter how ineffective or counter-productive they are to the class as a whole. Lets look at what I mean:


It took many years before Lightwell got in a shape where it can be argued it's effectiveness now instead of being a game-wide laughing stock, but it's STILL a 31 point talented heal I have no control over. Worse, it depends on non-healers to get any real use out of. This, along with Prayer of Mending, while nice abilities, as a player I have no control over, so it feels a little disingenuous even calling them priest abilities.

Shadowfiend still has rampant problems and is a form of mana regen that's a mob? Why? More importantly, what mob can any player summon that can be hit by anything only has 3k hp?

Mass dispel seems nice, but only when encounters actually work with it. It still only dispels magic, and no raid content currently has that kind of magic debuffing. Why is it magic debuffs only when defensively dispelling?

Dispel Magic is a neat little spell that gets two magic debuffs, but it still costs twice as much mana as any of the other class's versions, because like a lot of other priest things, it has a secondary effect built into it. Why didn't we get two spells that each fulfill that purpose instead of one and making it cost 2x mana?



I HATED the one button healing of priests, and couldn't agree more that some change had to be made. But the bottom line is, the developers themselves caused this problem in the first place, for wanting to make group formation easier and less time consuming. While I can understand this, I can't logically understand why we still have 2 AoE party only heals if this is the case, there's a disconnect in logic there. And I can only help but think the reason is, like the above listed, because it's something the developers are in love with, even if it's detrimental to the class. I'd also like to ask that since it was said "Discipline is the tank healing, Holy is the raid healing tree" in beta, does this philosophy change any in terms of Holy with this nerf to the output of Circle of Healing?



EDIT:


And I'd also appreciate some kind of feedback on the major issue a lot of us had, even with TBC, in the lack of our stacking raid utility. Why are we truly one of the only classes right now that doesn't benefit a raid with the more of us that are in the raid?

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Q u o t e:


What extras do you get for bringing 2 holy paladins? Unless you brought 0 other paladins, there's really not much of anything to point to.

There's no bonus value to the second healing priest, but I think that's true of all the healers now. I mean, maybe you get an extra innervate or an extra mana tide if you brought 2 druids or 2 shammies, but neither of those are effects like the old stackable bloodlust that would alter your raid composition.

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Actually, sometimes there is value to stacking classes/specs even if they bring no extra buffs. Stacking makes some strategies that were otherwise unviable suddenly viable.

The "bring 5 Priests for PoH" is an example of this. PoH on it's own won't heal up raid-wide damage, but one in every group and you can do it.

Similarly, with multiple Holy Pallies even if you get no extra Blessings, certain Beacon strategies now become possible that may not have been possible before.

In a manner of speaking, this is what made CoH so powerful. One CoH on it's own is no big deal. Being able to spam it--a sort of one-player stacking, if you will--and suddenly it's very, very strong.

My preference is still to bring as wide a mixture of classes as you can because they are complementary, but sometimes stacking opens doors. Unfortunately, it can also lead to nerfs after it gets exploited.

I don't understand all of this priest QQ. The holy priests in my guild are terrific. Much of the success we've had clearing the 25 man content is because of them. There are usually 2 holy priests in the raid (along with 2 shadow) and we would never sit any of them just to bring a paladin for tank healing. If you find that your guild is leaving you out because you're a holy priest, then your guild sucks. Find better people to raid with who realize that a well played priest is an incredible assett.