I mash two buttons, only the first one changes. The second one is HS.

Over long fights I have found that the hand starts to ache pretty bad.

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Q u o t e:
I mash two buttons, only the first one changes. The second one is HS.

Over long fights I have found that the hand starts to ache pretty bad.

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Take shield slam out of that macro. dev-dev-rev-ss is not practical anymore.

Misquote? or, errr... /confused

You cant macro much anymore. S&B ruined any good ones. Best ya can macro is your HS into other abils if your tired of pressing it, but that can miss beats depending on procs / priorities

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Q u o t e:
Misquote? or, errr... /confused

You cant macro much anymore. S&B ruined any good ones. Best ya can macro is your HS into other abils if your tired of pressing it, but that can miss beats depending on procs / priorities

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I bound HS to the scroll wheel on my mouse -- scroll down is HS and scroll up is Cleave. It works wonderfully, I find, and doesn't cause the same kind of finger-fatigue, even on a long fight like KT.

(By the way, I think my best dps ever came to about 1600, but with the exception of one bad 25-man pug, I've only done 10's. I have no idea where I should be sitting in a 10-man, but I know Deep Wounds is a consistent 9% of my damage on boss fights. I worry that it'll get nerfed just because it's become almost all warriors are 15 points deep in arms now and Blizzard sometimes decides that a certain talent shouldn't e considered a "must-have.")

I think most all of the best dps numbers that get posted on here are while OTing patch 25 man, so your not getting parries and still have lots of rage from eating hatefulls, and all the good buffs. So that's the fight you want to look at when judging your dps against other warriors.

I have not done much 25 man stuff, so I'm not sure how much of a dps increase the extra buffs are, but I expect that its significant.

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Q u o t e:

(By the way, I think my best dps ever came to about 1600, but with the exception of one bad 25-man pug, I've only done 10's. I have no idea where I should be sitting in a 10-man

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Q u o t e:
We are talking about nerfing Deep Wounds. We haven't done it yet. The reason for the nerf has entirely to do with dps warriors, though we realize it will affect some tanks.

On the one hand, we don't want to nerf Prot's threat generation or dps. On the other hand, we don't want Deep Wounds to be the only way Prot can have good threat generation or dps. I'm not announcing any changes here, only our thought process.

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I really hope Prot Warrior's DPS get a little consideration. We have been so desparate for it that we sacrificed 3% crit for Deep wounds just to get a bit more DPS. Even with this, we are still at the bottom. It's just fair that we be competitive with the other tanks when it comes to DPS.

Out of curiosity, what are prot warrior's crit rates like in tank gear?

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Q u o t e:
I really hope Prot Warrior's DPS get a little consideration. We have been so desparate for it that we sacrificed 3% crit for Deep wounds just to get a bit more DPS. Even with this, we are still at the bottom. It's just fair that we be competitive with the other tanks when it comes to DPS.

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Our DPS right now is pretty good even without a Deep Wounds build assuming one takes 5/5 in cruelty. It's light years better than our DPS in BC and more than enough for soloing. We might be at the bottom of the DPS among tanks, but we compensate with better snap aggro talents in our tree. So we are much less reliant on DPS for aggro than DKs for example.

Another thing to consider is how the Deep Wounds debuff might affect future instances. I was doing a fun run of AQ40 for the achievement with some friends earlier and I had to DPS adds on Twin Emperors. My deep wounds dot causing aggro problems after the two bosses switched. I would much rather see one of our base talents like Devastate get a bump in DPS.

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Q u o t e:
Take shield slam out of that macro. dev-dev-rev-ss is not practical anymore.

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it's not my rotation, but the more HS you can fit in, the better~

I don't know how common knowledge it is yet or not, but Deep Wounds in Warrior Prot builds is becoming pretty standard. So any nerf to it I hope they think long and hard about it before they attempt any changes.

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Q u o t e:
On the one hand, we don't want to nerf Prot's threat generation or dps. On the other hand, we don't want Deep Wounds to be the only way Prot can have good threat generation or dps. I'm not announcing any changes here, only our thought process.

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The only place I can do semi-respectable dps (in dps gear while somebody else tanks) is Loatheb and it's pretty much solely because I have Deep Wounds and the fight mechanics. I could just be failing awfully at dps, but really, if I put on my dps for the most part I do about half what the rest of the raid does. By that I mean mid 2k's while the top dps is sitting at 4.5-5k.

So for the most part I try and tank things because I know i'm better off asking the Bear to go Cat. Glancing at a WWS, I see that the Protadin is fairly bad off as well.

I'm reasonably happy with where I am in terms of dps while tanking, but I feel like Deep Wounds is still a fairly large part of that. It shows up at around 10% of my damage out right now.

In retrospect I can't help but wonder if the nerf of Devastate in WotlK beta (when it was 80% for a bit and got cut back) was too much. Things don't seem to have panned out as everyone predicted back then.

I'd like to be able to use Revenge - since it's such high damage - for actual offensive DPS. I wish it procced off Taste for Blood, but TfB isn't really gettable in a tank build either.

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Q u o t e:
Out of curiosity, what are prot warrior's crit rates like in tank gear?

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Base for me is something like 7.5% because I only have 2 points in Cruelty. But I have talents that give me +15% crit on HS, Shield Slam and Devastate, and I usually run with a Feral Druid and Ret Paladin for another 8% (LotP + HotC). So probably raid buffed i'm at about 30% on those three abilities.

Well, I'd have to say that if you don't want to nerf our threat and DPS, it would be better to have something to compensate in line before the DW nerf.

Ideal candidates in my opinion would be moving Thunderclap over to be a physical ability, and buffing devastate so it will actually be better than thunderclap after that change ;)

I'd have to say I'm very conscious of my DPS now because I'm often taken as an offtank rather than a main tank, and it's kinda depressing to always be the one only just in front of the healers in DPS when I've hardly tanked anything.

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Q u o t e:
Out of curiosity, what are prot warrior's crit rates like in tank gear?

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Our base crit rate is usually pretty low. Mine is sitting at 5% without cruelty. I would say your average, mid Naxx tank (like me) probably has between 5-10% crit depending on spec and gear. The key to making deep wounds work is the Incite talent in the second level of the protection tree. With three points, tanks get an extra 15% crit on our heroic strikes, cleaves and thunderclaps. So that's a 20-30% to crit on heroic strikes which most tanks spam when they have extra rage. That's usually enough to keep deep wounds up and ticking for a good amount on boss fights.

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Our DPS right now is pretty good even without a Deep Wounds build assuming one takes 5/5 in cruelty. It's light years better than our DPS in BC and more than enough for soloing. We might be at the bottom of the DPS among tanks, but we compensate with better snap aggro talents in our tree. So we are much less reliant on DPS for aggro than DKs for example.

Another thing to consider is how the Deep Wounds debuff might affect future instances. I was doing a fun run of AQ40 for the achievement with some friends earlier and I had to DPS adds on Twin Emperors. My deep wounds dot causing aggro problems after the two bosses switched. I would much rather see one of our base talents like Devastate get a bump in DPS.

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Compared to our state from before expansion, yes we are better. But that is not a valid comparison. We are not in competition with ourselves, we are in competition with other tanks. Specially in 25 mans where the tank slots are limited, we will find that Prot warriors will not be needed if the nothing changes and the scaling stays the same.

Of course if you are the GM of your guild, you don;t have to worry about this situation. But what if you're not.

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Q u o t e:


Heroic Strike isn't on the GCD, so you can macro it into your other tanking abilities.

#showtooltip Shield Slam
/cast Shield Slam
/stopmacro [modifier:shift]
/cast Heroic Strike

Automatically queues a Heroic Strike every time you Shield Slam, unless you hold shift.
Cuts the button mashing in half while making it easy to skip Heroic Strike in low-rage situations.

EDIT: Somehow misunderstood your original post. /shrug - the macro might help someone else.

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Macroing HS into Shield Slam or Revenge is one of the worst things you can do. It's not hard to push Heroic Strike on its own. Macros like that do more harm than good.

On a fight like yPatchwerk with a lucky or unlucky string of avoidance at beginning of pull, you can get rage starved fast and this means you will start taking hatefuls and the OT will have top agro.

I'm glad that Blizzard is keeping Prot in mind when they go to nerf Deep Wounds. I have been spec'ing with Deep Wounds because the damage and threat increase is noticeable but I feel a bit like it limits my build. I wouldn't mind Deep Wounds being weaker but it would be nice to have some additional damage available elsewhere for Prot builds to allow for some other build alternatives.

I just hope overall that Prot doesn't fall behind on damage compared to other tanks. My damage while not tanking is lackluster compared to DKs and Cats and that is somewhat by design I guess. I'm alright with my damage output while tanking currently but a Deep Wounds nerf could hurt that a bit.

I agree with the other poster who commented that the Devastate nerf from 80% to 50% weapon damage during Wrath beta was probably not necessary.

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Q u o t e:


Our DPS right now is pretty good even without a Deep Wounds build assuming one takes 5/5 in cruelty. It's light years better than our DPS in BC and more than enough for soloing. We might be at the bottom of the DPS among tanks, but we compensate with better snap aggro talents in our tree. So we are much less reliant on DPS for aggro than DKs for example.

Another thing to consider is how the Deep Wounds debuff might affect future instances. I was doing a fun run of AQ40 for the achievement with some friends earlier and I had to DPS adds on Twin Emperors. My deep wounds dot causing aggro problems after the two bosses switched. I would much rather see one of our base talents like Devastate get a bump in DPS.

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...I'm sorry? It's pretty good? You do know that DW is a straight-up upgrade from the points in cruelty even though the two talents are supposed to be synergistic?

Yeah, 1500 dps while MT isn't bad. BUT... it's not competitive with other classes. We stay afloat using Vigilance for the most part, with a few notable exceptions. It almost makes me want the talent gone so that the statistics show the real picture of Warrior threat. And don't get me started on what happens when a warrior gets pushed out of the OT totem pole for an encounter. At least Prot Paladins can chug a mana potion or something.

edit: This is why I suggest a devastate buff to compensate for DW. Devastate is pretty much your stable for non-tanking DPS as prot, so say, upping the percentage of weapon damage 5 or 10% would make a huge difference to warriors in all situations. And it would probably not be enough to end up with DW devastate builds.

GC, I think you may misunderstand the issue from prot warriors. We do not care about deep wounds.

We do not like having to spec 15 pts in arms, skipping even our own mitigation talents, just to get more damage and AOE threat, so we can do our job.

We spec deep wounds because it adds about 3%-4% more damage than other talent choices, and gives us more much needed AOE threat.

The inclusion of unmitigated damage creates an imbalance that we have all lived with and is mathematically un-balancable. As boss armor increases, mitigated damage goes down. If you scale up mitigated damage to make up this loss, then it would be far far higher against lower armor targets, creating a different but similar imbalance. We have been on both sides of this equation.

If you want to correct the scaling, modify the raid wide buffs. Presently, these buffs represent over 50% of typical 25 man raid damage, a smaller percentage of 10 man, and nothing when solo. These are the only location that you can control this type of scaling. Of course using raid wide buffs to scale classes means requiring the classes that bring the buffs.

Currently, we raid 10 mans, We use the following:
1 resto druid, 1 discipline priest, 1 holy pally, 1 oomkin, 1 prot warrior, 1 fury warrior, 1 bear druid, 1 affliction lock, and 2 unholy dks.

We miss many of the raid wide buffs since we have no shammy, prot pally, or hunter. The haste buff will be solved once my frost dk is leveled and geared. But what should we do once our priest finishes leveling his dk and our fury warrior finishes his?

If you drop the cooldown on thunderclap, or made all our damage "unmitigated", we wouldn't care so much about deep wounds. However, when you are the lowest damage class in the game, it hard to understand why your damage needs to be lowered further.

Instead of worrying over deep wounds, I would look into the future and try to figure out how raids will look in the new game "World of DK's"

Hey shut- if Armour is really the issue, adding some (percentage-based) armour penetration to Prot would also be another possibility to compensate for Deep Wounds, yes?