Deep Wounds :
Your Main Hand Critical Strikes deal 36 % of weapon Damage over 6 seconds.

There, fixed for Fury, Arms and Prot.

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Q u o t e:
We are unhappy with Deep Wounds because it is too large of a percent of your damage. I know that sounds strange to some players who ask "Why mess with it if our dps isn't too high?" Balance isn't just about who is highest and lowest on meters. Having such a high portion of damage come from a persistent, unmitigated bleed we think is a problem for warriors.

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I'm going to have to ask for a clarification of your statement so we can understand exactly where you perceive the problem. I know you make a lot of posts and you try to get your message across without writing five-paragraph essays, but I think this point is a nuanced one and might require an additional paragraph or two.

Mostly, I would like to know precisely what is problematic about warriors having a "persistent, unmitigated bleed." I'm not saying it isn't a problem, because I agree that a 3-point talent buffing DPS by 20% doesn't sit right, but I'd like to know where you think the problem lies. Is it the fact that it bypasses mitigation? Is its passive, persistent nature the problem? Is it too strong for its talent point allotment and placement?

Is it not the design intent for warriors to deal significant amounts of unmitigated damage? I trust Blizz to balance out the numbers in PvE if they nerf DW, but PvP will be a thornier problem. Gimping our unmitigated damage will hurt our chances against DKs and pallies classes we already do poorly against. Plate-wearers generally have more armor than raid bosses, so any compensation of DW damage with physical damage will maintain the status quo in raids but be a net nerf to damage vs. classes with higher armor than raid bosses.

Another angle I could understand would be dissatisfaction with so much damage coming from a passive effect. While players might not like a nerf to DW for that reason, I think they might forgive you depending on how it was compensated. If you ended up shifting more damage into front-loaded abilities, I can't imagine warriors being too upset. =P

Someone made an excellent point above: DW is a HUGE damage boost for three talent points. The previous points in Arms do almost nothing to boost DPS. The solution, or at least one potential solution, seems obvious to me.

The worst bit is that the devs never seem to learn from one mistake to the next. Prot warriors will end up being the collateral damage, the same way holy pallies were shafted in order to nerf damage to ret. In percentage terms the loss is far greater to Prot damage than anyone else.

Conceptually, what is the problem with a tanking class that does a constant AOE dot? Death Knights and pallies get it, and the mechanic works more reliably for them in any case.

Changing Deep Wounds to be weapon based only would also be a far harder nerf on Prot than on anyone else. For God's sake please deep-six that idea. Don't change the mechanic.

The better solution is to change how it scales. Don't base it off weapon damage, as modified by attack power or whatever else. Give it 3 ranks over 3 talent points and scale it with the warrior's level only.

OR, if you are going to keep scaling but nerf dps for arms and fury, compensate the prot warriors by buffing a deep prot talent like Focused Rage. Add "and increases the damage from all bleed effects by 10/20/30%.

OR change the Damage Shield prot talent to make the damage it causes spread over 6 seconds, stacking, so we won't need this junk to begin with. You can then buff bleed stuff higher in the Arms tree to get it away from Fury warriors.

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Q u o t e:
It's like climbing a mountain, and after you're halfway up someone builds a staircase for the first quarter then saying they "helped" you. The staircase does you no good, because you're already past it regardless.

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You sir... win at everything just for this statement. I would just like to add something from the warrior forums to back this up....

grand post of ROFL no do generally lol for true but this one is too much

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Q u o t e:


Arms PvE dps probably needs a buff even on live. With the changes to Sudden Death and possibly one to Dual Wield, this is even more true. We are currently exploring the best way to do that.

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What change to Dual Wield?

deep wounds is infact op anyways o.0 hence the nerf.

TG %hit is not a buff

keep crying.

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Q u o t e:
deep wounds is infact op anyways o.0 hence the nerf.

TG %hit is not a buff

keep crying.

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Productive input is productive.

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Q u o t e:


Arms PvE dps probably needs a buff even on live. With the changes to Sudden Death and possibly one to Dual Wield, this is even more true. We are currently exploring the best way to do that.

We are unhappy with Deep Wounds because it is too large of a percent of your damage. I know that sounds strange to some players who ask "Why mess with it if our dps isn't too high?" Balance isn't just about who is highest and lowest on meters. Having such a high portion of damage come from a persistent, unmitigated bleed we think is a problem for warriors.

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I dont understand why is that a problem. To me its one of the most brilliant ways of a damage source for a game that has PVP and PVE in it.

Deep Wounds shines in relatively long fights(PVE Raid bosses) and is not that big of a deal in short fights and PVP.

If our dps isnt over the top(ie hunters) why mess with it. If our dps gets nerfd and its not over the top, I would expect just compensation somewhere else.

The TG fix is not a pve buff, and the change to bloodsurge would not compensate for the crippling of what is considered 30% of our dmg.

Please buff arms.

Remove skill limitations on stances. Rework stances to behave more like DK presences with a rage cost to switch in combat (could be 25 rage...50 rage...or even better resets rage to 0 no matter if you have 100 rage or 1). Def stance has increased life or armor and extra parry or dodge. Battle has a Increased damage component...through a % of AP or crit. Berserker should have a pvp component...lowered gcd by .5 OR a mobility buff (not run speed...lowered root/snare/charmed/fear/stun/sheep/incapacitate timer...like 1/3).

Remove the out of combat requirement on charge...with this change remove the talent intercept completely, protection talent would keep the snare and add root removal.

Replace "Improved Intercept" talent with "Improved charge" which lowers the CD of charge to 10 secs from 15 with 3/3 points and increases range of charge to 40 yrds.

Remove the stun on charge and replace with a 2 sec daze.

Heroic throw silence should be baseline.

That right there should take care of pvp.


Now to balence arms in pve. Personally I don't like the idea of buffing Slam in order to buff arms. Removing the cast time would be overpowered to no end in pvp. Although the old concept of giving a warrior rage by attacking him would definetly be back...in a big way. No..I think Slam is fine the way it is. I would balence things though MS and the talent Improved Mortal strike.

Along with improving the damage significantly...such as making it 150% weapon damage instead of 100%, add some component to Mortal strike that makes it attractive to use...it is after all the staple of the Arms tree...always has been. Add a secondary effect besides the 50% healing debuff. Remove the -1 sec CD component of the Imp MS talent and add ONE of the following:

Possible candidates for the new Improved mortal strike secondary effect?

- A secondary self buff that affects bleeds...which would buff rend and DW while the MS debuff is active. This would prioritze rend and MS above slam and SD to maximize bleed damage. And works WITH DW to make that 15%-20% of your total dps in a pve environment a total cost of 6 talent points instead of 3.

- MS does 200% weapon damage to enemies that are under Rend's effects.

- Causes MS damage to be magic based.

- Add a detonate effect when the MS debuff drops off...call it somethign cool like Heart Seizure or somthing...make it a decent amount (base it off AP or weapon damage or the MS itself that applied it...crits for 200%). Personally I think an average hit of 30% of the MS that applied it should work. SInce your MS's will hit for 150% weapon damage + ~380...I think MS should crit for around 5-6k and the detonate should hit for 1.5-2k and crit for 3-4k.

This right there makes the 25 rage cost MS more attractive to use than just slamming and MS when you have over 50 rage. At the moment MS is like 10% of my total damage, its just not a priority when slam has a MUCH better damage/rage ratio.

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Q u o t e:
the change to bloodsurge would not compensate for the crippling of what is considered 30% of our dmg.

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Warriors seem to be kind of upset at the prospect of a DW nerf, but I think that's because they're not seeing the big picture. The intent, as implied by GC, is to nerf Deep Wounds, not overall warrior DPS. He's talking about making DW less powerful, and making other sources of warrior damage more powerful. In effect, making DW a smaller slice of the warrior damage pie and shifting the leftover into other abilities. I don't care where my damage comes from, particularly, as long as I'm doing good damage, so this plan sounds fine to me.

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Q u o t e:

Warriors seem to be kind of upset at the prospect of a DW nerf, but I think that's because they're not seeing the big picture. The intent, as implied by GC, is to nerf Deep Wounds, not overall warrior DPS. He's talking about making DW less powerful, and making other sources of warrior damage more powerful. In effect, making DW a smaller slice of the warrior damage pie and shifting the leftover into other abilities. I don't care where my damage comes from, particularly, as long as I'm doing good damage, so this plan sounds fine to me.

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I agree, but our other sources of damage are BT, heroic strike, bloodsurge and WW.

The buffs they have mentioned so far would not compensate for not having rolling DW(which is what I presume they are talking about).

You guys remember the mage nerf to rolling ignites?

If they nerf DW but make BT and WW stronger, id be happy with that.

maybe they want to spread the damage out, so that you use more then just BT, HS, bloodsurge, and WW... I know it was an arms build, but I recall people using slam for damage quite often, among other abilities (and no, I don't have my forum avatar listing my warrior at the moment... which isn't even 70 yet, so thbbbbt to anyone who wants to complain that I need to go back to the pally forums =p )

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Q u o t e:

such a high portion of damage come from a persistent, unmitigated bleed we think is a problem for warriors.

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Poisons
Holy damage
All casters' spells
Stings
enh. shamans' lightning attacks
diseases
scourgestrike / equivalent
gargoyle
... pretty much every class.

But its overpowered when warriors have it. Are you guys drunk all the time?

I can deal with you guys not liking us having unmitigated damage. I don't like it, but can deal. It's rather unfair to solo us out for pvp with this (as just about every class has some form) nerf, but we don't know what it'll be like with new pvp weapons either.

I want to clear a few things up that most people seem to be misinformed about. BOTH warriors and non-warriors.

GC stated they have not nerfed it yet.

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Q u o t e:
Let me back up here. We have not nerfed Deep Wounds yet. We are talking about it. Players saw a nerf to Sudden Death and asked why we would nerf Arms without nerfing Fury, since Fury seems to be dominating Arms in PvE and Arms is not dominating Fury in PvP (not that we want one or the other tree to be the PvE or PvP tree anyway). I responsed that we wanted to adjust dps warrior dps by making Deep Wounds less of an overall contribution of warrior dps, buffing Arms in PvE and possibly PvP, and either keeping Fury the same or slightly nerfing them for PvE.

Longer term, I think the real key to fixing some Arms (and Fury) issues is to take a hard look at stances. But those are beyond the scope of 3.0.8.

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DW has not been nerfed. They have not said how it would be nerfed. Wait and see.

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Q u o t e:
Protection - very happy with the tree overall. One of our best success stories in LK I think. Still a viable tank, but with some more interesting abilities and actually a better PvP presence. Critical Block and Damage Shield may present scaling problems down the road.

Fury - Titan's Grip is cool overall, though we still worry about whether Fury has enough buttons to push and too much rage. Whirlwind Glyph change should be nice. Might generate too much threat (with no viable dump) when blowing cooldowns.

Arms -- probably the tree that still needs the most love. Some of the new talents are very cool, but mid-tree may be a bit lackluster (we don't want to make the upper tree any more attractive to Fury). Deep Wounds is probably too high a percent of overall damage, but we don't want to nerf it without compensation elsewhere. Sudden Death may be too RNG, but we'll see. Bladestorm + Retaliation can make a nice tank. :)

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This is perhaps one of my favorite posts by him. Nowhere he states that fury does too much damage. Here's another to look at.

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Q u o t e:
Deep Wounds is causing too high a percent of damage for Fury and Arms, 20 or 30% of total damage on some fights, and often above white attacks. Since it is unmitigated damage we are eventually going to have balance problems here if we don't already.

Fury is slightly high in PvE, or definitely will be after these TOO [sic] changes. Arms is too low in PvE, which is why I said we wanted to buff them.

We like Deep Wounds' position in the tree. We're fine letting all warriors reach it. It's just too good.

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Slightly high or will be. Did he say that fury was overpowered? Did he say that it was doing too much damage? Did he say it needs to be toned down? No. Quit assuming what he says.

Till we see patch notes and blue posts showing that fury is getting nerfed quit saying it is. And for the non-warriors, you can quit saying fury is doing way too much damage too. We might be doing a little too much. Might. But we're also having to min/max, get in the absolute best in-slot gear, and have the best buffs available. Do I think we should be #1 honestly? No. Whether I wish we were or not is a different story. But from what we can gather on GC's posts, we aren't getting major nerfs. We aren't going to be knocked down below everyone else. From how it sounds to me, they like the general place fury has.

tl;dr: Wait. Blue hasn't said we're getting major nerfs.

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Q u o t e:

But its overpowered when warriors have it. Are you guys drunk all the time?

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LOL, well that would explain a lot.

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Q u o t e:
But its overpowered when warriors have it. Are you guys drunk all the time?

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GC hasn't said exactly what their concern is with DW. He has not said the problem is it's nonmitigable. Maybe they don't care about its nonmitigable nature, but the fact that 20% of our damage is a passive side-effect is problematic for the devs.

To second what other people have been saying: don't put words in GC's mouth. He never said the devs don't want warriors to have unmitigable damage. He said they are talking about nerfing DW and compensating warrior damage elsewhere. The only reason he explicitly stated for talking about a nerf was DW doing too high a percent of warrior damage. He said nothing about any spec being OP, or any intention to nerf the class.

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Q u o t e:

Having such a high portion of damage come from a persistent, unmitigated bleed we think is a problem for warriors.

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Then why is ok for Paladins to have so much of their damage come from unmitigated holy damage, which translates into incredible and almost completely unavoidable burst in pvp?

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Q u o t e:


Yes, sorry. Lots of acronyms in this game.

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Whats funny, is for 3.5 years DW meant nothing but Dual Wield. Why? because Deep Wounds was such a non factor in anyway other than keeping a rogue from re-stealthing.

I'm no expert on warriors, infact I know nothing about warriors, but it seems to me, if your gaining 5% hit YOUR GAINING DPS, considering Hit, until maxed it the biggest dps increase, so your just making yourself look pretty stupid.