It's not much of a buff but honestly, did we really need any buffs?

I wasnt gemming for hit anyway, just means I can sub a few pieces of gear out for potential upgrades without worrying about a set in stone hit margin because I'm already above it.

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Q u o t e:
They know its not a buff that's why they removed it. They rightly believe that the 5% penalty was pointless.

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Exactly.

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Q u o t e:


So why are they calling it a buff that will make up for our DPS loss from the deep wounds nerf?

Change in WW glyph + Deep Wounds nerf = net loss in DPS.

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Call it an exercise in creative writing.

I think I'm behind the times here, whats actually happening to Deep Wounds?

I didn't see them claiming it was a buff. If so they just contradict themselves and make them look worse than they did by nerfing dw.

adsun is 100% correct. taking the penalty off tg is not a buff in any way. and if the devs are using it to nerf deep wounds then thats lame and shouldnt be.

warriors hvae rend and deep wounds for unmitigatable damage. thats it, no holy no shadow no spells no poisons. any changed to deep wounds aside from a slight tool tip change aka 40% instead of 48 will probably make the spells useless like it was for the past 4 some years(aside from helping keep a rogue form stealthing which doesnt matter anymore). i am already below the other tanks on patchwerk even with deep wounds and mangle up.(we have a dk mt paladin or druid ot and me ot)

also the sudden death change was a pvp nerf

This is why I made the post I did.

To beat you we must do one of two things,

1.) Spec HAT and use the rogue stacking exploit, which is confirmed as fixed on the PTR so it will not be possible very soon.

2.) Spec HAT and have an outlandish group requirement of all hunters, which is a design blizzard is very much against. Even then, we're not beating you unless the RNG is very friendly to everyone in that party.

Warriors are out and out beating mutilate and combat rogues and non-exploiting HAT rogues. It is going to get worse when the patch hits because they also killed the double poison offhand bug with mutilate, which will drop it's dps.

Why do you think for a single minute that you, as a warrior, as a hybrid, should be out DPSing a rogue of any spec?

Do I have your battle shouts when it comes to raid utility? Can I ever hope to offtank even for a second? Does the majority of my utility apply under all circumstances and doesn't require a change of poison? Is my anti-armor cheap and not a major detriment to my DPS cycle?

The answer to most of these questions would be no, or somewhat debatable, but still no.

You guys do not need a buff, you need nerfs, you're one of the outliners that have to be brought in line that ghostcrawler was talking about.

It wasn't just the gimmick fights that had you ahead though, it was and large any fight where both warrior and rogue had the right gear and were playing correctly.

Yes I completely agree buffing rogue DPS to a good level is a better solution, even ghostcrawler has said he isn't happy with combat's DPS and Sub's dps without HAT exploiting in his most recent post about rogues, and is somewhat okay with how mutilate is doing...

He also said that after the outliners are brought down, and combat/sub are adjusted, DPS is where they want it to be...

So we can assume they intend for mutilate dps to be as high as dps should go for people that fight like rogues in melee range. If they buff rogue DPS up instead of bringing everyone above them down then you will have to raise boss HP, make bosses harder, and re-tune achievements.

I think they'd rather just be lazy and nerf everyone down, if they do then they feel they don't have to rebalance PvP as well as PvE, or totally rebalance achievements and bosses off of higher than it should be DPS across the board.

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Q u o t e:
This is why I made the post I did.

To beat you we must do one of two things,

1.) Spec HAT and use the rogue stacking exploit, which is confirmed as fixed on the PTR so it will not be possible very soon.

2.) Spec HAT and have an outlandish group requirement of all hunters, which is a design blizzard is very much against. Even then, we're not beating you unless the RNG is very friendly to everyone in that party.

Warriors are out and out beating mutilate and combat rogues and non-exploiting HAT rogues. It is going to get worse when the patch hits because they also killed the double poison offhand bug with mutilate, which will drop it's dps.

Why do you think for a single minute that you, as a warrior, as a hybrid, should be out DPSing a rogue of any spec?

Do I have your battle shouts when it comes to raid utility? Can I ever hope to offtank even for a second? Does the majority of my utility apply under all circumstances and doesn't require a change of poison? Is my anti-armor cheap and not a major detriment to my DPS cycle?

The answer to most of these questions would be no, or somewhat debatable, but still no.

You guys do not need a buff, you need nerfs, you're one of the outliners that have to be brought in line that ghostcrawler was talking about.

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umm, battleshout is non existent in a full raid. our raid utility is basically useless except for two buffs. and yes you can offtank if you really wanted to, its called evasion, try it out somtime. and if you wanna call us hybrids then we are the most under priveleged hybrids in the game. oh and this coming from a rogue is rich.

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umm, battleshout is non existent in a full raid. our raid utility is basically useless except for two buffs. and yes you can offtank if you really wanted to, its called evasion, try it out somtime. and if you wanna call us hybrids then we are the most under priveleged hybrids in the game. oh and this coming from a rogue is rich.

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Buffs are buffs, I don't care if you want to minimize them. Rogues have tricks of the trade, it isn't even a party buff, certainly not a raid buff and doesn't have the capability to be 100% up time. Every class brings a major and minor debuff and buff except for rogues who don't even have a minor buff under classic definition.

Evasion off tanking? I guess you missed the part where dodge was nerfed. With duel spec coming your excuses and cop-outs on not being able to tank are non-existent, especially when you can manage to survive trash and boss adds without being specced to tank.

You're a hybrid, you do more than one PvE job. Don't ever think you're not.

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No, you're not. Currently, if you have 13% hit YOU DO NOT MISS with specials on raid bosses, or level 83 mobs. Lowering that to 8% hit allows you to stack other stats, like crit and AP. The only problem is, you STILL have 28% chance to miss with white attacks. If you reduce your hit% from 13% to 8% you will still not miss with specials, but you WILL miss with more white attacks, meaning you won't have the rage to USE specials.

You do not understand the warrior class. Neither does Ghostcrawler, apparently. Reducing hit needed for specials does nothing for fury warriors, because we still need to maintain the hit for auto attacks in order to generate rage to use the specials in the first place.

So I'm not going to be hitting MORE by reducing the hit needed with TG by 5%, I'm going to be hitting LESS if I try to capitalize on it by itemizing for less hit. It will change nothing as far as Fury PvE DpS is concerned.

It is a buff to fury PvP, where we cannot afford to stack hit because we need so much resilience.

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Then why don't Warriors stack to 28% hit so they hit with all their white attacks?

Let me rephrase my original statement: you will hit more unless you are already at the cap, then you have the opportunity to drop 5% hit.

You say dropping 5% hit would be bad, but then why isn't gaining 5% hit desired? Your logic makes no sense.

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Q u o t e:
If it's a buff at all, it's a pretty minor buff. You are correct that we changed it because the original penalty on TG had shriveled away to be inconsequential.

This is a different issue from Deep Wounds. We think Deep Wounds does too much damage. We weren't suggesting Deep Wounds because of the buff to Titan's Grip. It was more of an issue of "Why are you buffing Fury, who seems to do very high PvE damage already?" Sorry if I mangled any explanation of that. With the "patch notes" out there have been a lot of hot-button topics. :)

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You didn't say anything wrong. It's the mouth breathers that connected the two different issues together themselves.

And to top it off you even suggested possibly alternative buffs to compensate for Deep Wounds being made less good.

People are just too eager to cry about stuff, without knowing everything else going on.

edit - I'm actually amused that TG gets the hit penalty removed and people CRY over it, because it's perceived as compensation for nerfing Deep Wounds, despite the TG change having been talked about and planned for months now.

Sky isn't falling people.

Fury warriors do way too much damage. It's that simple. Their overall damage needs to be lower then it is and apparently deep wounds is too much of their damage so it's being nerfed.

Sounds like a similar issue to warlock's with soul shatter. Sure they have these nice +hit talents, but they only effect either destro and affliction, but soul shatter is demo, effectively forcing them to stack +hit anyway. Of course, for warriors it's a bigger issue as SS often is a not need, or you're willing to risk it. For Warriors this would be a continuous issue to sacrifice the +hit.