Stop saying it is, you're just making yourself look foolish. As it is, maintaining the minimum 10% hit to not miss with specials (horde side, alliance only needs 9% thanks to spacegoats) is barely enough to maintain rage generation for a smooth rotation. Ideally a warrior should have about 15% hit to maintain rage. It simply isn't feasible to stack hit that high with the gear available at this time.

All removing the 5% hit penalty to TG does is allow us to PvP with at TG build. IT WILL HAVE NO INCREASE ON OUR RAID DPS. Therefore, it is not a buff to fury warriors to make up for our reduction in dps from the Deep Wounds Nerf.

8 second Whirlwinds is a slight dps increase, allowing 1 more WW every minute. ONE MORE WHIRLWIND EVERY MINUTE. 3 extra whirlwinds every 2 minutes. As most 25 man Naxx fights last about 2.5 minutes, we might get 4 extra whirlwinds each encounter. IF we maintain 10-15% hit, and don't miss WW cds because we are trying to use all our bloodsurge procs.

I'm hoping the bloodsurge change will end up being a buff, but currently slam is doing around 3-6% of my dps if I hit it everytime surge procs. If you double that it will not make up for a drastic deepwounds nerf. If you double the number of procs, it will also effect my rotation, which will end up being a NERF in overall DpS.

Please stop worrying about PvE for a while and fix warrior PvP. If it happens to make us Hunteresque for PvE for a time, so be it. Adjust numbers until you bring us back in line. Currently we need new ABILITIES to give us a fighting chance in PvP. Abilities and adjustments to our current abilities that people have been telling you about for the last year and a half.

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Q u o t e:
You're still hitting more than you would without it, thereby increasing your DPS. Just because it doesn't change the amount of hit you need doesn't make it not a buff.

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Actually most warrior's won't be hitting more.

If you are at the pve TG special hit cap, which most warriors are at, or close to, you are very likely not going to go and drop down to 5% hit just because you can. You could, and you would lose a massive amount of dps because of how spiky your rage generation would be, your rotations would be absolutely awful; making your dps awful.

The change to TG certainly isn't a nerf, so it is very likely to be proclaimed by the community, and even by developers as a buff.

so it wouldn't be a nerf to increase the hit penalty to 10%?

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Q u o t e:
so it wouldn't be a nerf to increase the hit penalty to 10%?

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wat

EDIT: To clarify, yes, that would be a nerf. That would require Warriors to wear 15% hit gear to reach the specials hit cap, which is over what most warriors are wearing now.

EDIT 2: Adsun's hit numbers are extremely high. It is very difficult to pinpoint the true ideal sweet spot for rage generation with TG, but anything over 10% most likely will give you much more mediocre results compared to raising your AP.

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Q u o t e:


wat

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read the thread title. Maybe read a few snippets of the OP if you can be bothered.

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Q u o t e:
so it wouldn't be a nerf to increase the hit penalty to 10%?

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correct.

They know its not a buff that's why they removed it. They rightly believe that the 5% penalty was pointless.

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Q u o t e:
so it wouldn't be a nerf to increase the hit penalty to 10%?

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Warriors are saying that when gearing for Hit for a DW build, the required hit for yellow damage is already at/under the hit rating they shoot for, which means lowering it further will have no real effect on itemization.

If they want 15% hit, and TG makes them need 13% for specials, they already have that by virtue of having 15% for white hits.

With TG changing, it now requires 8% hit, whish is, again, lower than 15%.

If it was changed to a 10% penalty, it would cause specials to need 18% to hit, and this be a 3% nerf (not 5%) assuming we're assuming 15%.

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Q u o t e:


Warriors are saying that when gearing for Hit for a DW build, the required hit for yellow damage is already at/under the hit rating they shoot for, which means lowering it further will have no real effect on itemization.

If they want 15% hit, and TG makes them need 13% for specials, they already have that by virtue of having 15% for white hits.

With TG changing, it now requires 8% hit, whish is, again, lower than 15%.

If it was changed to a 10% penalty, it would cause specials to need 18% to hit, and this be a 3% nerf (not 5%) assuming we're assuming 15%.

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That would be a bad assumption.

It was just used as illustration of the point made above :p

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Q u o t e:


My numbers do not include precision. I was giving the non-warriors in this thread the basic numbers.

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I figured, sorry, have not had coffee yet this most excellent morning.

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Q u o t e:


Not if they increased the amount of hit on plate to compensate.

You fail to understand that there are two hitcaps for warriors. White hit cap is 28% on a raid boss. 5% base, 3% for being level 83, 20% for dual wielding. In PvE, our white hits are all that allow us to gain rage. We need to maintain a minimum level of hit to maintain rage to use our special attacks. In shaman terms, it's like maintaining the minimum mp/5 you need to be able to continue casting for an entire boss encounter.

THEN there is the "specials" hit cap. For any other melee user this is 5%, plus 3% on raid bosses because they are 3 levels higher. For TG that cap is 13% because you add another 5% penalty for Titan's Grip.

When you remove that penalty, it might seem like a buff to any other class, where they don't NEED to hit with autoattack. Hitting with autoattacks for a roge or enhance shaman just means a dps increase. For Warriors it means we have the rage to use our abilities. We cannot afford to miss too much with autoattacks, or we will not do any damage.

Even in BC, before TG, and when bosses had a 29% chance to miss with DW (9% miss with specials) fury warriors stacked hit above and beyond the 9% needed. We need to maintain a minimum 10% hit, and optimally 14-15% hit. If we are already maintaining 10% hit in order to hit with enough white attacks to use our specials, then it doesn't matter that we have more than enough hit to not miss with those specials.

It's like climbing a mountain, and after you're halfway up someone builds a staircase for the first quarter then saying they "helped" you. The staircase does you no good, because you're already past it regardless.

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The guy you quoted understood perfectly what you just laid out.

That's why he said it. lol.

when did he say it was a significant damage buff anyway? I only recall him saying it was more of a quality of life change. They removed it because it was a pointless, annoying weakness that didn't need to be there, and didn't achieve anything meaningful by being there.

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Q u o t e:
Stop saying it is, you're just making yourself look foolish. As it is, maintaining the minimum 10% hit to not miss with specials (horde side, alliance only needs 9% thanks to spacegoats) is barely enough to maintain rage generation for a smooth rotation. Ideally a warrior should have about 15% hit to maintain rage. It simply isn't feasible to stack hit that high with the gear available at this time.

All removing the 5% hit penalty to TG does is allow us to PvP with at TG build. IT WILL HAVE NO INCREASE ON OUR RAID DPS. Therefore, it is not a buff to fury warriors to make up for our reduction in dps from the Deep Wounds Nerf.

8 second Whirlwinds is a slight dps increase, allowing 1 more WW every minute. ONE MORE WHIRLWIND EVERY MINUTE. 3 extra whirlwinds every 2 minutes. As most 25 man Naxx fights last about 2.5 minutes, we might get 4 extra whirlwinds each encounter. IF we maintain 10-15% hit, and don't miss WW cds because we are trying to use all our bloodsurge procs.

I'm hoping the bloodsurge change will end up being a buff, but currently slam is doing around 3-6% of my dps if I hit it everytime surge procs. If you double that it will not make up for a drastic deepwounds nerf. If you double the number of procs, it will also effect my rotation, which will end up being a NERF in overall DpS.

Please stop worrying about PvE for a while and fix warrior PvP. If it happens to make us Hunteresque for PvE for a time, so be it. Adjust numbers until you bring us back in line. Currently we need new ABILITIES to give us a fighting chance in PvP. Abilities and adjustments to our current abilities that people have been telling you about for the last year and a half.

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Cry more.

My class is a duel wield master who spends the most amount of time learning and using it, lore and mechanic wise.

Are you saying rogue duel wield should have some kind of advantage because of it? Thought not.