TLDR: Warlocks are in decent shape in PvE and mostly fun to play (my post is more in the context of “fun” than numbers). I’d like to see dark pact, eradication, and possibly haunt tweaked for affliction. Affliction rotation could also be simplified easily through small glyph changes. I’d like to see some changes in the deeper talent areas of demo to make the builds a bit more dynamic and fun, or at least to scale a bit better. Destro shouldn’t have to pay such a heavy price for its mana return talent. I feel my damage is competitive with other ranged pures. Id like to be convinced that we’ll scale as well as mages, and sometimes its hard to look at hunters and not be jealous of some of their choices/abilities/versatility relative to their pets.

Long Version:
I’d like to give a little feedback on the way I see the warlock class in PvE and then a little bit comparing to other ranged “pures”. I don’t post on these boards much, as I prefer EJ forums, both for the quality of thought/posts, as well as the moderation. I do focus a lot on theorycraft and numbers at times, but this post is more about the “fun factor” with warlock raiding. I’m posting this mostly because all of the discussion lately seems to be around warlock pvp (and some QQ no doubt). I’d like to give my feedback strictly on PvE and without QQ as a reasonably experienced raider. Hopefully it is useful to the designers and/or other members of the community.

Background on me:
I played all three warlock trees in TBC raiding – affliction in Kara, Demo in T5 and into T6, and of course 0/21/40 destro after that. The most fun I ever had raiding in TBC was learning gruul and VR around patch 2.1 (when we still had to position pets) with no 2pc T5 bonus as 7/43/11. Realizing that playing badly meant 10th-ish dps and that when I learned to manage the pet and play the build well I dominated (not only finishing #1, but often 20-30% ahead of #2) was absolutely exhilarating to me.
I never enjoyed 0/21/40. It felt stupid and impossible to suck. Seeing the first 10k crit was fun, but I was thrilled when the spec was nerfed in favor of more complex options.

In WoTLK I have played affliction, meta/ruin, FG/Emberstorm, and MD/SnF builds. I have found FG/emberstorm the most fun for me, even though my dps was a bit higher as affliction

Overall, I think the warlock is pretty well off in PvE; the devs have done a good job providing viable and fun alternatives for dps. DPS varies a bit, but all trees are viable in current content (by this I mean your rDps is not gimped to the extent that you need to “spec X for this fight or sit out”). Well played affliction will surpass any other build, but this is ok in my mind. Affliction max dps does not come easily.
I do want to stress that while I will make suggestions/observations in the paragraphs that follow, I am reasonably happy with my warlock in PvE. Demonic teleport is fun to use even in raids. Shadowflame dmg is ok, but the narrow cone makes it a pain to use, even while solo grinding.

Affliction:
Haunt - I wish that travel time didn’t play a part in haunt’s cycle. I’m not asking for it to be instant cast, but having SE or in rare cases corruption fall off the target because of haunt’s travel time is annoying.

Dark pact - what is the point of dark pact anymore? Lifetap returns more mana, and the HP sacrifice argument doesn’t fly in raids given JoL, VE (sometimes), siphon life, and haunt. I think this talent needs some work/replacement. Perhaps amplify curse could apply to this talent? It would give added value to amplify (which some raiding warlocks take), and would make dark pact a more attractive talent (an interesting choice – GC has said he likes us to have these).

Eradication - It should be a nice way to squeeze in more shadowbolts, but too often the UAImmolate pattern I have set up leads to clipping when I:ve procced eradication. With my gear the 1.3 sec cast goes to 1.1. I have enough to watch out for with affliction, trying to get my mind around delaying refresh of UA for an extra .2 seconds when I proc eradication is a bit of a PITA. This frustrates me. Can it just be changed to make the next 5 shadowbolts within 20 secs have a faster cast time or something ? I think this would be more “fun”

Rotation - could glyph of agony extend the curse to 30 secs? This would do worlds for simplifying the rotation and provide an interesting glyph choice (CoA glyph for easier rotation with slightly less dps potential vs max dps glyphs corruption, SL, immolate, or imp and a harder rotation)

Demo/Desto Hybrids (0/41/30 and 0/30/40+1):
I like the rotation, but it would be nice if deep demo had a dmg spell or other cooldown to pop. I know why the change to DEmpowerment was made, but frankly I just macro it now to my incinerate button since it’s off GCD, so its not really all that interesting in a raid setting. Maybe as gear gets better we’ll find a Meta build is worth

Filler.

Give us doom guards.

Be cool.

Nice to see affliction's rotation is going to be more simple though

Good info thanks.

---

Q u o t e:
Thanks for the feedback, Turturin.

We're generally happy with locks for PvE too. I think the rotations are more interesting than they were in BC and it's nice to see Affliction up there with Destro. Demo is probably still too low, but see below.

As I've suggested before, there are a few things we are looking at on the PvE side of locks:

1) Get shards into a place that is more interesting and less of a hassle. We have two models we're considering. One is very cool, but a huge change to gameplay, which might mean it has to wait. The other is more of a quick fix that we'd do until we can implement the very cool model.

2) Simplify Affliction's rotation a little bit. This might involve making dots last a more uniform duration (so you didn't feel that external mods were mandatory) or just reducing the number of spells you're expected to cast.

3) Locks are still built a lot around damage over time, but a lot of fights just aren't lasting a long time. This might mean locks needs some more options for quick damage, or the problem might fix itself in Ulduar.

4) We're a lot happier with demons in LK, but we still have some work to do. The Voidwalker, Succubus and maybe the short-term demons aren't quite there yet. Improving demons should also help kick Demonology up a notch.

5) There are a couple of awkward places in the talent trees still.

Note that I am only talking PvE here. Some of these changes will help PvP too, but some of the lock problems in PvP will require different solutions too.

---

Thanks for posting some of the issues you are looking at. Makes the waiting a bit more tolerable.

---

Q u o t e:
Thanks for the feedback, Turturin.

We're generally happy with locks for PvE too. I think the rotations are more interesting than they were in BC and it's nice to see Affliction up there with Destro. Demo is probably still too low, but see below.

As I've suggested before, there are a few things we are looking at on the PvE side of locks:

1) Get shards into a place that is more interesting and less of a hassle. We have two models we're considering. One is very cool, but a huge change to gameplay, which might mean it has to wait. The other is more of a quick fix that we'd do until we can implement the very cool model.

2) Simplify Affliction's rotation a little bit. This might involve making dots last a more uniform duration (so you didn't feel that external mods were mandatory) or just reducing the number of spells you're expected to cast.

3) Locks are still built a lot around damage over time, but a lot of fights just aren't lasting a long time. This might mean locks needs some more options for quick damage, or the problem might fix itself in Ulduar.

4) We're a lot happier with demons in LK, but we still have some work to do. The Voidwalker, Succubus and maybe the short-term demons aren't quite there yet. Improving demons should also help kick Demonology up a notch.

5) There are a couple of awkward places in the talent trees still.

Note that I am only talking PvE here. Some of these changes will help PvP too, but some of the lock problems in PvP will require different solutions too.

---

Two things:

A) It may make your job easier to bookmark this thread and throw it at lock "QQ why arent you answering us" threads =P

B) Any kind of word on the state of imps? Are you 100% happy (subjectively of course) with them right now? Ive found my imp dying more than Id like. I understand its the glass cannon of pets and all but I find its avoidance to be quite buggy in AoE raid boss situations. Also I have to resummon mine just to fight gluth cuz he cant jump down from the pipe into the room.

---

Q u o t e:

1) Get shards into a place that is more interesting and less of a hassle. We have two models we're considering. One is very cool, but a huge change to gameplay, which might mean it has to wait. The other is more of a quick fix that we'd do until we can implement the very cool model.

---

I'd rather see the change to gameplay, even if it takes a bit longer.

---

Q u o t e:

3) Locks are still built a lot around damage over time, but a lot of fights just aren't lasting a long time. This might mean locks needs some more options for quick damage, or the problem might fix itself in Ulduar.

---

For @!@@'s sake, enough of this waiting to see if the problem irons itself out, that didn't work during beta, didn't work during the release, didn't work for season 4. Take your heads out of your asses and stop handling warlock problems with a wait and see attitude.

As a lock in PvE what I don't like about my class is the debuff time it takes to optimize our DPS and being overly dependent upon procs; In other words I optimize the abilities of other classes but sacrificing my own DPS in the process.

I'd have to agree with Turturin on most of his points, but I'd like to add that I actually like the complexity of the rotation right now. I don't see a problem with having a tree that is more difficult to play, but if you nail it, the output is greater than the trees that are easier to juggle. That being said-

1-Haunt. It should be instant or have no travel time. Or the travel time of Ice Lance. Doesn't have to be all of those options, but just one would really help. I've taken to standing as close as possible to any boss that I can get away with it, virtually in melee range, just to make it easier to maintain 100% Haunt up time.

2-Dark Pact. Pretty worthless atm. I could see with the imp Fel Hunter talent the synergy that the devs were attempting to build. But it just plain didn't happen after the gutting of dark pact. If DP was restored to it's original state, I think this would be a great set of talents. Right now, neither are worth taking, as the fel hunter never runs out of mana, and the few extra spell damage from increasing his spirit buff are not worth two talent points.

3-Eradication. It's been said before, but I'll say it again. The internal cool down is so high, that the diminishing returns of spending more than one point make it a one, or at most, two point talent.

4-Malediction. This talent still seems underwhelming given it's place in the tree and the fact that there are other options for getting a 13% debuff on a target now.

5-Threat. I'm curious if any of the developers have seen any issues in internal testing with affliction's threat generation. I started a thread in the tanking forums yesterday, asking if tanks had been experiencing afflic locks making threat out of proportion in regards to everyone else, and a few answered yes. I've been having a few issues myself, and not just on fights like Malygaos, where dots will obviously create an issue. I'm curious if any internal testers have been having any issues.

Edit: And I'm looking forward to seeing shards change. If there's something game breaking that is in the works for long term, that's awesome, but short term it would be nice if A) They were on the currency tab, or B) Leave them in a bag slot, but take them off any combat spells. I don't have any issues using shards for summons, stones, pets, cookies, etc. but having a cost on Soulfire and Shadow Burn, two spells with a CD, just seems silly. Either remove the shard cost, or the CD. One or the other will keep people from spamming them, we don't need both.

---

Q u o t e:
3) Locks are still built a lot around damage over time, but a lot of fights just aren't lasting a long time. This might mean locks needs some more options for quick damage, or the problem might fix itself in Ulduar.

---

Not trying to be argumentative or insulting here, but the "wait until Ulduar" option here seems lazy. You're basically stating that it's okay that affliction's damage output is low for a not insignificant number of fights in the expansion due to the fight duration, because we'll be balanced when the final raid dungeon is out in another month or two. I'm rather certain that wasn't the intended interpretation of your statement, but would you mind clarifying this point a bit? Perhaps give us some insight as to what the developers are thinking on this?

---

Q u o t e:
We're generally happy with locks for PvE too. I think the rotations are more interesting than they were in BC and it's nice to see Affliction up there with Destro.

---

Say what? Last i checked, destro was pretty weak as a pve spec...

Thanks for the "don't worry, we haven't forgotten you." Should keep some people cooled off.

I think my biggest complaint about warlock PvE could probably be said for hunters too. Pets are a liability on certain fights. Have you looked in to certain AoE or targeted effects that can slaughter pets? Sapphiron's aura, Lava Churns on Sartharion and that stupid Magnataur boss' impale from Pinnacle come to mind immediately. Basically anything that leaves a player sized DoT on a pet sized health pool is a bad thing, especially when your quick summon is on an out-dated 15 minute cooldown.

Tell me one of our quickly approaching bandaids is a baseline Fel Domination with a lower cooldown, please.

---

Q u o t e:
Say what? Last i checked, destro was pretty weak as a pve spec...

---

Probably weaker than it should be, but with Conflag finally getting benefit from Emberstorm and Chaos Bolt's base damage being increased it's a bit stronger in 3.0.8.

---

Q u o t e:
2) Simplify Affliction's rotation a little bit. This might involve making dots last a more uniform duration (so you didn't feel that external mods were mandatory) or just reducing the number of spells you're expected to cast.

---

I'd rather see the latter than the former, to be honest. With DoTs having more uniform timers, you run the risk of having them drop at the same time actually losing DPS when you reapply. If I could make a suggestion I'd have Corruption apply the "Siphon Life effect" which does exactly what the spell is now. Naturally, it too would be refreshed with Everlasting Affliction.

Oh, and can damage and debuffing curses be split in to two different categories so we can use one of each? Rogues have Deadly Brew and mages have Slow. You know you wanna!

Thanks GC for taking the time to answer to yet-another-thread on the same subject. However, I do think that the fact you sometimes give better answers (in the sense that they're more informational than the previous ones), makes people believe making more threads on the same stuff is worth it.

I don't know how to efficiently fix this issue, though, so I won't hold it against you. I'd rather you keep giving us information regardless of it being done in a "spoiling" manner.

---

Q u o t e:
2) Simplify Affliction's rotation a little bit. This might involve making dots last a more uniform duration (so you didn't feel that external mods were mandatory) or just reducing the number of spells you're expected to cast.

---

I hope you're thinking about that for all 3 specs, not only Affliction. Hybrid specs are fine right now, when it comes to managing timers. But Demonology doesn't keep up (and we know you won't make it really keep up, due to the trade-off for "survivability"), and Destruction (all the way to CB specially, but any fire-based spec kind of suffers too) also needs attention.

I think Destruction's issue may be solved with your changes for Affliction's durations, as it should cross over to Destruction too, with Corruption and Curse of Agony. The main issue, however, is the final talents in the tree.. Way too much talents to spend to get minimum or sub-par results. Backdraft really needs to be a real DPS increase, and I'm not sure it is, even lowering the GCDs (but I guess time will tell). CB may be ok on the PTR, but I haven't tested myself.

But Conflag really, really needs to be looked at. Adding Emberstorm to it is a bug fix, not a buff. It should have ALWAYS been there. But the spell costs a talent point, too much mana, a GCD, does little damage to how much it costs, and mainly, it cripples the use of the base spell for your rotation. Again, you really need to look into this, if you want to keep the word on all specs doing similar damage.

---

Q u o t e:
3) Locks are still built a lot around damage over time, but a lot of fights just aren't lasting a long time. This might mean locks needs some more options for quick damage, or the problem might fix itself in Ulduar.

---

This is the sad part of your post, though. Knowing you guys for years, what I read from this is "do not expect this part it be implemented for 3.1."

---

Q u o t e:


Say what? Last i checked, destro was pretty weak as a pve spec...

---

agreed, desto needs work, it is not even close to equal with affliction atm. Destro could use more crit modifiers and for immolate to be a stronger dot. It needs exequte range. In most fights i can keep up with affliction and frost fire, after 35% frost fire starts pulling away, and after 25% afflction as well. Destruction does not have such huge overpowering damage through out a fight that it withstands being overwhelmed in the end.. this must be addressed.

---

Q u o t e:


I'm not the best geared destro lock and I pull sub-3500 dps on patch. I am pretty happy with destro pve.

---

Congrats being happy/satisfied with subpar DPS compared to mages; whom are easily pulling 5.5/6k DPS and should be considered the gold standard in caster DPS.

My biggest PVE concern at the moment is the ongoing Shadow Embrace bug. Is this going to be addressed sometime soon? It really sucks that we have to force some of our locks to not spec affliction to avoid the problem, especially since Blizzard was kind enough to address the debuff slot limitation.

I had heard a rumor that it was being fixed on the PTR, but I tested yesterday, and the bug persists -- only one lock gets the SE effect and benefits.

If there is some technical limitation holding up fixing this bug, then destro and demo really need some buffs to bring them up to par with affliction on boss fights ... they tend to only beat aff on trash.

---

Q u o t e:
Thanks for the feedback, Turturin.

We're generally happy with locks for PvE too. I think the rotations are more interesting than they were in BC and it's nice to see Affliction up there with Destro. Demo is probably still too low, but see below.

As I've suggested before, there are a few things we are looking at on the PvE side of locks:

1) Get shards into a place that is more interesting and less of a hassle. We have two models we're considering. One is very cool, but a huge change to gameplay, which might mean it has to wait. The other is more of a quick fix that we'd do until we can implement the very cool model.

2) Simplify Affliction's rotation a little bit. This might involve making dots last a more uniform duration (so you didn't feel that external mods were mandatory) or just reducing the number of spells you're expected to cast.

3) Locks are still built a lot around damage over time, but a lot of fights just aren't lasting a long time. This might mean locks needs some more options for quick damage, or the problem might fix itself in Ulduar.

4) We're a lot happier with demons in LK, but we still have some work to do. The Voidwalker, Succubus and maybe the short-term demons aren't quite there yet. Improving demons should also help kick Demonology up a notch.

5) There are a couple of awkward places in the talent trees still.

Note that I am only talking PvE here. Some of these changes will help PvP too, but some of the lock problems in PvP will require different solutions too.

---

i'm seriously glad to hear this. Making dots uniform and doing something about afflictions rotation to cast less spells would be great.

and yes, we do need more ways for quick damage, affliction spec may be great on bosses, but on trash i'm just a shadowbolt spammer and its not my bread and butter spell as haunt spec.
p.s. pretty pretty please tell us about this cool model your considering? i would love a huge change to shards.

---

Q u o t e:

1) Get shards into a place that is more interesting and less of a hassle. We have two models we're considering. One is very cool, but a huge change to gameplay, which might mean it has to wait. The other is more of a quick fix that we'd do until we can implement the very cool model.

---

+1 vote for the "very cool model"