World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> "Chess Match"

Battledragon

< Nightfall >

Thunderlord

80. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 10:12:16 PM PST

Q u o t e:

This example doesn't apply any more because you do have CC. Also, just because you can't play as one spec doesn't mean pvp was broken. I couldn't pvp as holy because I would get torn through like I wasn't wearing resilience. Shadow was also very ifffy. For the most part as a priest you had to be mostly disc. There were very few exceptions.

Ok I lied about it being my last post.

I tried to outline what I was trying to get at in my last post, but just to quickly go over it.

If any class has a small amount of CC and relies on burst/sustained damage to kill people then they a should be able to.

If any class has a large amount of CC and does large burst, then they automatically outclass the first class.

If you start balancing around dps levels and control of the second classes then you alienate the first and you see their representation drop in the lower brackets because they don't have the tools to compete.

The second class needs to be made accountable for having so much extra CC, while also making sure the first class is at a high enough level to kill the same people the second class can, which means healers.

This would mean if the second class screws up his tools, he wont have enough flat dps to win, however if the first class performed his ability to lay out constant dps and burst at the right times, he should have just as good of a chance winning as the second does when he usses all his abilities.

The only thing this would change is split up dps play styles in pvp. Instead of having people needing to control the fight to win, through CC/debuffs/survivability there would also be people able to cause serious harm if not paid attention to.

Etal

< Bloodmoon Chosen >

Argent Dawn

81. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 10:36:11 PM PST

I’ve always compared MMO’s to chess. Yes they have random elements, but no analogy is perfect. The key to chess is that the pieces work together to form overall balance. MMO’s are the same. While some of the game dynamics are different, the synergy of the pieces is what makes the game interesting. Healing, Tanking and DPS are the basic pieces for MMO’s. This was known as the Holy Trinity. Today, Blizzard is trying to embrace that and work with it. But what they are really doing is reducing the roles from 8 to 3, but even that won’t be enough.

No change to an MMO is game breaking. Even the worst possible choice rarely bring down an MMO. But while no change is game breaking it can be game altering, and often in a bad way. This is what’s happened with the Arena’s. WoW had several roles, much more than 3. These roles were balanced around groups of 5, much like chess is balanced around a groups of 16. The problem is that when you randomly take two distinct pieces and pit them against each other, you’re going to have imbalances. Some combinations will be completely overpowered, and others will create stalemates that won’t have a definitive winner. Originally, like Chess, different classes were designed to work together. No class was complete. Remember the original mantra? WoW was not designed around 1v1 duels? That was because some classes would perform better 1v1 than others. This was acceptable since the classes that performed well in single encounters were not as strong in group encounters. This was the fun of diversity. This is the reason choosing a class made a difference and wasn’t just an aesthetic choice.

Today Arena Balance is unforgiving and the diversity that makes classes fun and unique is a liability in the Arena. This is not an opinion, it’s a mathematical fact. The only way to fix the problem is to either completely rethink the way Arena’s work, accept and ignore the imbalances or completely homogenize the classes to remove all diversity. Unfortunately, it seems that Blizzard has chosen the latter meaning chess is turning into checkers.

Proaim

< Believe >

Nathrezim

82. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 11:32:15 PM PST

fine no chess analogies but how about this analogy its a five second honeymoon where healers loose.

The problem i have is as a rogue/retpal/dk i can do naxx 10/25 and be 2k ready and as a healer i must grind my arse off pvping ie dying over and over just to not die in less than 10 seconds seems to be ok with you.

High survivability dps vs low survivability healers = dps profit.

Do you acknowledge that this is how it is? Are you aware and simply going to make dps take a back seat to us through changes after giving them such a head start in gear by putting too little resil on blue gear. The reason for purchasing this x-pack for many was the level playing field to start back into pvp.

dying over and over with little control over the outcome or anything DOESN'T feel fun.

[ Post edited by Proaim ]

Veturius

< Darksin >

Hellscream

83. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 11:41:26 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I don't think chess is a good analogy for WoW PvP. That's not what we're trying to do with it.

In most chess games, split-second timing isn't an issue. At most you have a timer and have to make a decision within a few seconds. A few seconds can be an eternity in an Arena. Speed shouldn't be everything, but it should definitely count. Manual dexterity is almost irrelevant in chess as long as you can pick up the pieces, but in Arena there is certainly an element to using the ability you want at the precise right moment. Arena is not turn based.

Chess games have almost no random elements. Random elements are very much at the heart of an RPG. Now granted RNG sometimes can take on too much prominence, but the rook is never going to miss the pawn.

Chess is usually one on one. The coordination of a team is very much at the heart of our PvP, even in a BG pug situation.

I think when players bristle at my saying we don't want Arena to be chess, they think I am saying that we don't want interesting decisions, bluffing, counter moves, upsets, and all of those things that make chess interesting. That's not really what I was trying to say. What I meant was that we don't want Arenas to be all about exercising pre-memorized moves. It should be more dynamic than that.

We are sympathetic to players who don't enjoy a match that revolves entirely (key word) around CC'ing or mana-draining the healer. There has to be a place for just killing each other in Arenas. Now there does have to be a place for healing, CC and draining too (and there may not be enough of that right now).

Speaking entirely personally here, I find Arena matches, especially between very highly talented teams to be really exciting, while chess puts me to sleep. I don't download many chess videos.

CC'ing and mana draining the healer is a thing of the past. This is 3.0, healers (priests specifically) are focused down before a main burn would cast anyway.

(I suppose that was nonconstructive..i know i know....resilience will make it better...its not as bad as us crazy posters make it out to be..l2p etc)

You'll see. Eventually hard data and testimony from your credible sources will confirm our howling at the wind. I just wish we didnt have to wait 6 months for it.

[ Post edited by Veturius ]

"Priests are one tough cookie!"-Fangtooth
"Lets just say ill be going deep in the holy tree!"-Eyonix
"There are also Holy Priest changes in the works."-Tigole on 2.1.0

Kalivie

< IM GONNA JACK U UP S… >

Thunderlord

84. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 11:59:27 PM PST

I can guarantee you that if pvp continues in the direction it is going, MASSIVE amounts of people will eventually stop playing. It simply is not fun.

If I wanted to play a game where I could kill someone in the time span of 3 seconds, I'd go play counter strike.

If you're trying to market the game into more of an early teens pool, you're heading in the right direction. Twitch gaming and instant killing other people is "cool" in that aspect. But for most of us; we don't like it, and we've repeatedly told you we don't like it.

Why do you keep trying to push the new arena game play on us when it is clearly not what we want? It is obvious that you do venture to these forums, but do you translate what people are saying to the developers, or just shrug it off? Personally, my account runs out in eleven days, and I will not be resubscribing.

Honestly, I can't see millions of people PAYING to pvp like this for very long, it's going implode eventually.

Hirotaki

< PvP Trainer >

Eredar

85. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 12:20:42 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I don't think chess is a good analogy for WoW PvP. That's not what we're trying to do with it.

In most chess games, split-second timing isn't an issue. At most you have a timer and have to make a decision within a few seconds. A few seconds can be an eternity in an Arena. Speed shouldn't be everything, but it should definitely count. Manual dexterity is almost irrelevant in chess as long as you can pick up the pieces, but in Arena there is certainly an element to using the ability you want at the precise right moment. Arena is not turn based.

Chess games have almost no random elements. Random elements are very much at the heart of an RPG. Now granted RNG sometimes can take on too much prominence, but the rook is never going to miss the pawn.

Chess is usually one on one. The coordination of a team is very much at the heart of our PvP, even in a BG pug situation.

I think when players bristle at my saying we don't want Arena to be chess, they think I am saying that we don't want interesting decisions, bluffing, counter moves, upsets, and all of those things that make chess interesting. That's not really what I was trying to say. What I meant was that we don't want Arenas to be all about exercising pre-memorized moves. It should be more dynamic than that.

We are sympathetic to players who don't enjoy a match that revolves entirely (key word) around CC'ing or mana-draining the healer. There has to be a place for just killing each other in Arenas. Now there does have to be a place for healing, CC and draining too (and there may not be enough of that right now).

Speaking entirely personally here, I find Arena matches, especially between very highly talented teams to be really exciting, while chess puts me to sleep. I don't download many chess videos.

I'm sorry GC, I really do have high thoughts of you and respect you and your opinions on this game, as you seem to have insight into classes overall, but sometimes when it comes to PvP, you just don't seem to get the point. How do you think all those gladiators and top players got up there? Through coordination, team work and fast reflexes. PvP atm is pure fast reflexes, if even at that right now, considering most matches are zerg-fests.

I am completely gemmed and enchanted in full res and stam, and as a Resto Shammy can only hit 18.5k health, once I'm completely geared up I'll be at 19.5k; Res is now at 720, which will be 820 once I get everything.

I get killed in less then 3 secs.

Mages (after an imp. silence) pom pyro me for 8k, followed by a 6.5k Arcane Barrage. Rogues kill me in Kidneys and DKs kill me in a Strangulate after they've popped their gargoyles. This is all with 20% less damage from crits, and happens quite often. And it's not only me, it's basically anyone who isn't plate (you know, those with over 20k health without even gemming or enchanting for any of it, can heal a tad bit, have heaviest armor, have "bubbles" (such as anti-magic zone) or pure bubbles, and somehow tend to have the most damage).

I know you may not like the strategic ways of S4 and before, but this is wayyyyy too far in the other direction, things are ridiculous. I don't mean to brag, but to be able to say that I have some experience as verification of knowledge, but I am also a Gladiator Shaman and a lover of the old ways where tactics and strategy actually made a difference.

Sorry for the wall of text and good night since it's kind of late.

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("')(°,..,°)("') <---Pounce! RAWR!
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Siij

< The Pink Avengers >

Laughing Skull

86. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 05:31:50 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I think when players bristle at my saying we don't want Arena to be chess, they think I am saying that we don't want interesting decisions, bluffing, counter moves, upsets, and all of those things that make chess interesting. That's not really what I was trying to say. What I meant was that we don't want Arenas to be all about exercising pre-memorized moves. It should be more dynamic than that.

Using pre-memorized moves is all the arena has been for four seasons. And that's not bad - that's a trademark of skill.

Adding "dynamic" dosen't mean pushing the skill cap further down by reducing the options players have with excessive damage and shorter games.

There's no room for innovation in a game with so few options for players. You're generally forced in to one type of build for your spec, one type of selection of your gems, and three or four abilities. You don't add dynamic to tic-tac-toe by randomly giving one player two turns. You add dynamic by increasing the number of squares.

Hirotaki

< PvP Trainer >

Eredar

87. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 09:55:49 AM PST

To clarify what I meant to say last night in a much shorter fashion: burst is way out of line right now. And I mean ALL burst, even healing is ridiculous (you just don't have time to react or even get a heal off). With the damage that's going around, 30k health should be the norm for all players, and I mean ALL, not just plate.

I feel really sorry for locks especially right now...

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("')(°,..,°)("') <---Pounce! RAWR!
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---(,.)(.,)

Oprahora

< Serenity Bell >

Illidan

88. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 10:21:32 AM PST

Q u o t e:

I was in beta, I pointed out a few times on the beta forums how DPS seemed pretty insane for certain classes and it might make PvP uncomfortable for cloth classes and/or healers. A lot of people told me to shut up, it would all balance out before release or shortly after.

I was not in beta and have unfortunately just started noticing some of these issues recently. I am sure a lot of this had been discussed, but the DPS delivery systems as a whole has been changed. I remember during BC that although the DPS classes were able to hit some insane numbers and insane crits on the various raid bosses, those hits took a huge effort to actually get rolling. The mages had to get their low damage scorches applied, the shadow priests needed to get their shadow vulnerability hits applied, the warlocks waited for both and their crits. After they got all these dubuffs on the bosses they started to see some nice DPS numbers. But until then, the hits were fairly low.

Also note.. that although the hybrids did not have the set up time that the pures had they also did not have DPS numbers.

It seems to me that the classes have lost their "set-up" to DPS. And I think this is what is hurting PvP. You can't give a paladin the ability to put out 4-5K DPS on a raid boss without any limitations in PvP. The paladin does not need to set anything up, the ramp up time is instant. The same thing seems to be true for Moonkins. A lucky crit from a Moonkin can easily hit a PvP target for 11-12K. A warlock or Mage could NEVER do that in BC. By the time the damage modifiers and debuffs were placed on the target the target would be dead -- or the debuffs could be dispelled. So we basically were looking at healing through the 1-2 hits.

the set up was a requirement. It allowed the DPS classes to take down a 10 million health raid boss -- but you couldn't just bring that DPS number into an arena use it against a player. Now half the classes out there can actually do that. they can literally walk out of Naxx and bring their 5K DPS into an arena and start dpsing PvP targets. There is no way to heal through that.

Aeonic

< Nerf Warlocks >

Sargeras

90. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 11:31:59 AM PST

The whole point of a chess analogy is the elimination of random elements, which have no place in a "skill-based environment". Unfortunately, trying to accomplish "RPG Chess" is like adding oil to water and asking it to blend nicely.

Rhastha

Frostwolf

91. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 11:43:41 AM PST

Ive been kind of raging lately with the arena(I play 2v2 DiscPriest, Rogue) and I have been playing games this weekend and so far the Healer DPS teams we play the games are actually very fun, CC does play a huge part for a priest, although the DK gargoyles drive me crazy I can deal with it. The games aren't too long and you do see more cordination and timing with CC to win. I just think right now the cheese teams that just go for big crits and fast as possible are what makes people upset. Like a double DK team with 2 ghouls 2 gargoyles and 2 strangulates = death for a disc priest atleast and ret pali/dk's dmg together and ways they can take minimal dmg while zerging a weaker target. I agree that sometimes you should just kill someone but I dont think it just be as easy to do it with 2 certain classes because their dps is so high (ret palis, arcane mages, ect)

Deify

< Reborn Addiction >

Jubei'Thos

92. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 11:56:11 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Speaking entirely personally here, I find Arena matches, especially between very highly talented teams to be really exciting, while chess puts me to sleep. I don't download many chess videos.

You might not be the right bloke for the job then ever consider that? The internet and online gaming are for nerds. And as nerds we are very discerning customers. If the numbers and the "rules" aren't working in an RPG but it's more interesting does that make it a better game?

Lets not forget we're not playing an FPS here. If we were you'd lose.

Superhawk

< Knights who say Ni >

Llane

93. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 12:18:08 PM PST

Q u o t e:
The whole point of a chess analogy is the elimination of random elements, which have no place in a "skill-based environment". Unfortunately, trying to accomplish "RPG Chess" is like adding oil to water and asking it to blend nicely.

I would disagree. Random elements make for a more reactive, rather than proactive, style of play. If "no plan ever survives contact with the enemy" then that's good, because you want players to have to make changes to their plans on the fly. The problem comes when RNG gives you no time to respond. Random elements should provide swifter kills/life-saving not instant kills/life-saving. What would be cool is if the game issued penalties after RNGs, so that, for example, if you got a large amount of burst on a guy thanks to a random effect but you didn't manage to kill them, your opponent would get some sort of a buff that would reduce the damage they took after that or the attacking player would be unable to act from 'exhaustion.'

Q u o t e:
Wait wait wait, so you're saying that you need healers and DPSers to properly kill a warlock?

Can't wait til we have to bring a tank too.

-Nevo
Senorhappy est mon frere! =D

Bailedout

< Bad Economic Policy >

Tichondrius

94. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 12:35:30 PM PST

Ghostcrawlers comment was fine but we are just all so emotional right now. General strategies are preplanned yes - but when the mage is going to cs/poly morph (and how you are trying to trick them) is dynamic and what he is referring too.

Whether or not WAR is a better pvp game for healers (it is) is irrevelant in this thread.

[ Post edited by Bailedout ]

The best part of my keyboard is my dedicated calculator button; I ♥ The Great Software Empire !!!

Selosi

Blood Furnace

95. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 01:09:51 PM PST

It is probable that GC does mainly PvE himself. He's hard-working enough to go out of his way now to reply even to PvP threads, but it wasn't his natural inclination, as some may recall the relevant past posting history on the beta forums and during the first month here.

Unfortunately, that can lead to a different viewpoint. Really, PvP shouldn't be modeled after the style of fighting mobs. It is the variety from such if one gets a bit bored otherwise in endgame.

For some players doing PvP, they don't want to do it for a PvE-like experience but rather welcome precisely the differences. There is a huge segment of the customer base which never gets bored with doing simple DPS to kill 17232 mobs. But the segment who really does PvP a lot of the time is often a different group. Even when playing a DPS class, I don't want to kill healers without having to use my CC and all abilities to the maximum, as that's what can distinguish me from newbs, and, to a degree, PvP is about competition and showing off like that.

[ Post edited by Selosi ]

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

96. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 01:59:42 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Immature, and i didn't see anyone ask you what you thought about chess. And secondly are you putting down chess and the people that play it?

Because when arena was more like chess, the way it should be, it was more fun to live for over 10 mins. then die in 2.

I wasn't trying to insult people who like chess. It's just not for me. I am certain there are things I like that make other people scratch their head.

Q u o t e:
Take shaman(Coincidence I swear) for example. The only way they had to stop healers output was a) damage b) 2 second interrupt on a 6 second cooldown that was on and activated their GC as well as being shared by their main slowing ability.

No, this was actually my point. When shamans see the only way to kill a healer to be a stun, silence or mana drain, then they understandably ask for those abilities (and probably MS too). We don't want Arena to be a system where every class has the same tools and just endlessly counter each other. Damage in Arenas needs to be a factor.

Q u o t e:
The aspect of chess-play that people enjoyed in their arena matches is getting your opponent into a position where you can crush them via out-maneuvering them.

I think this is totally valid. Don't interpret what I said to say Arenas should be entirely unlike chess. I just don't think it is a particularly strong metaphor (even though I may have been the one who first invoked it).

Q u o t e:
How do you think all those gladiators and top players got up there? Through coordination, team work and fast reflexes.

I also strongly agree with this. This is where the chess analogy fails IMO, because it typically isn't about coordination, team work and fast reflexes. This (the quote) is exactly what Arena should be in my mind. I think maybe some of the confusion comes from interpreting my comments to mean "And I think we have achieved that right now." I didn't say that. I was talking more about what we think the ideal Arena should be (and I asked in another thread for player opinions too).

Q u o t e:
Using pre-memorized moves is all the arena has been for four seasons. And that's not bad - that's a trademark of skill.

I think it depends on your definition. There is another quote about this below. Deciding when to unleash those moves and when to change your strategy is the dynamic aspect I'm talking about. Invoking "pre-memorized moves" too much makes it sound like the outcome of a match is never in question and it's just who knows the moves better. If the answer to A is always B and B always works flawlessly, then I think you've reduced something complex down into a series of very simple decisions -- and I don't think that is what is really going on.

Q u o t e:
The whole point of a chess analogy is the elimination of random elements, which have no place in a "skill-based environment". Unfortunately, trying to accomplish "RPG Chess" is like adding oil to water and asking it to blend nicely.

This actually may boil things down nicely. We don't want to eliminate random elements. We don't want them to dominate, certainly, but this game gets a lot of its depth from players never being able to be 100% sure what is about to happen. I understand many players want to reduce or eliminate the random elements, especially in PvP. We don't. Planning for what you do when the unexpected happens, having contingency plans, and working around the random elements all require a lot of skill. We aren't computers.

Q u o t e:
Ghostcrawlers comment was fine but we are just all so emotional right now. General strategies are preplanned yes - but when the mage is going to cs/poly morph (and how you are trying to trick them) is dynamic and what he is referring too.

Yes.

Ceridwyn

< SPQR >

Kargath

97. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 02:21:22 PM PST

So if healers can be bursted down by a single player, without them using CC, why should a healer enter the arena? What value do they provide?

It seems like it would make more sense to bring a DK instead of a healer, because the damage is imba, CC is imba, and selfhealing is out of control.

You haven't explained this GC... Do you think any team should bring a healer into arena?

It seems to me, with your current logic, that DPS > healing, so a full dps team would be more valuable every time.

Now I realize pally healers are having an easier time with it, because of their plate, but as resilience goes up and DPS become harder to kill, healers will still be the free HKs. So DPS will become even more value as Arena goes on.

Unless GC changes his attitude that 1 DPS should always kill 1 Healer.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

98. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 02:27:35 PM PST

Q u o t e:
So if healers can be bursted down by a single player, without them using CC, why should a healer enter the arena? What value do they provide?

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said "single player." What I meant was we don't want to ever get into a situation where healers are immortal. Some players would argue that we have been at that place in previous seasons -- it might not be a prevalent opinion on a healing forum of course. :)

Tyena

< Crimson Alliance >

Emerald Dream

99. Re: "Chess Match" 01/03/2009 02:39:55 PM PST

Those weren't your words. People are just a little frayed at how bad things are and how long it seems before they will change. If ever.

[ Post edited by Tyena ]

"Holy Priests are gap fillers" Ghostcrawler
"YES! I've always wanted to be spackle or grout" Jood

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING