World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> "Chess Match"

Jasmela

< Villains >

Gurubashi

20. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 10:09:46 AM PST

Blizzard wants less chess match like arena fights. That's their way of dumbing down the game to appeal to people who lack the concept of strategy. The word "skill" hardly applies now, its about who gets the first 8k crit wins the match. This is why prot pallys are viable in arena, because they can mitigate a hugh portion of the burst damage.

Thank you blizzard, I'll remove my CC spells from my hotbar. As I only need to spam 1 button now to win.

Stackhouse

< Pacifist >

Auchindoun

21. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 12:10:42 PM PST

It really doesn't surprise me that Blizzard is this ignorant when it comes to PvP. Did anyone catch the Arena match where the "Best" of Blizzard, the team that rolled all other Blizzard teams, got beat easily by warrior/warrior/mage joke team? They then let out a sigh of relief when they snuck through a 2v3 win. I mean seriously, if these are the best of the best can you imagine how bad some of the developers are? If they have this little of a clue of how to play arena, how can we expect them to make intelligent decisions? We can't, and they aren't. Hire some people who actually know the arena system to fix this mess please...

Dyse

Khaz Modan

22. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 12:27:02 PM PST

I think GC meant to say that they are looking to turn Arenas from a "chess match" into a "speed chess match".

All the same fun, all the same strategy, but you have to work faster, think faster, and it's over a lot faster.

And hey, speed chess requires more skill then think for days regular chess.

Shamannigans

< The Nine Headed Hydr… >

Shadow Council

23. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 12:36:00 PM PST

Q u o t e:
SWTOR baby, can't freakin' wait.

hell yes

Stackhouse

< Pacifist >

Auchindoun

24. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 12:40:39 PM PST

Do you call the current state of a arena a speed chess match? It's about as mindless as you can possibly get...

Q u o t e:
It's likely the game would devolve into silencing or CC'ing the healer

-Ghostcrawler

Tyena

< Crimson Alliance >

Emerald Dream

25. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 12:43:10 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Do you call the current state of a arena a speed chess match? It's about as mindless as you can possibly get...

Friends tell me arena is more like a game of Mortal Kombat than chess. Strategy is thin and burst dps is the king.

Soooo .. another expansion to sit out pvp on this character.

"Holy Priests are gap fillers" Ghostcrawler
"YES! I've always wanted to be spackle or grout" Jood

Jood

< Eternal >

Scarlet Crusade

26. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 12:44:13 PM PST

It's appealing to the largest possible audience. I wonder if people abandoning healers in PvP is going to have any effect on healers in PvE.

Do you have the time to listen to me whine about nothing and everything all at once?

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

27. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 01:41:18 PM PST

I don't think chess is a good analogy for WoW PvP. That's not what we're trying to do with it.

In most chess games, split-second timing isn't an issue. At most you have a timer and have to make a decision within a few seconds. A few seconds can be an eternity in an Arena. Speed shouldn't be everything, but it should definitely count. Manual dexterity is almost irrelevant in chess as long as you can pick up the pieces, but in Arena there is certainly an element to using the ability you want at the precise right moment. Arena is not turn based.

Chess games have almost no random elements. Random elements are very much at the heart of an RPG. Now granted RNG sometimes can take on too much prominence, but the rook is never going to miss the pawn.

Chess is usually one on one. The coordination of a team is very much at the heart of our PvP, even in a BG pug situation.

I think when players bristle at my saying we don't want Arena to be chess, they think I am saying that we don't want interesting decisions, bluffing, counter moves, upsets, and all of those things that make chess interesting. That's not really what I was trying to say. What I meant was that we don't want Arenas to be all about exercising pre-memorized moves. It should be more dynamic than that.

We are sympathetic to players who don't enjoy a match that revolves entirely (key word) around CC'ing or mana-draining the healer. There has to be a place for just killing each other in Arenas. Now there does have to be a place for healing, CC and draining too (and there may not be enough of that right now).

Speaking entirely personally here, I find Arena matches, especially between very highly talented teams to be really exciting, while chess puts me to sleep. I don't download many chess videos.

Dööbie

< Awaken >

Destromath

29. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 01:51:45 PM PST

Q u o t e:
What I meant was that we don't want Arenas to be all about exercising pre-memorized moves. It should be more dynamic than that.

Couldn't the argument be made that right now some double dps teams can win with nothing more than a /castsequence macro, the most pre-memorized move there is?

Stealth
cheapshot
mutilate
CB evisc

Slow
Barrage
AP PYRO
Barrage
(worse post patch with the changed AB spell- who cares about mana efficiency in a dbl dps match!)

ETCETCETC

EVERYTIME.

[ Post edited by Dööbie ]

Golodh

< Serious Casual >

Mal'Ganis

30. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 01:52:44 PM PST

The question everyone is probably asking themselves is when can we expect any changes? 3.0.8 has been on the PTR for 3+ weeks? And thats hardly going to fix anything. I'm not going to wait around the next 3 months to hope you might get it right when you couldn't even deliver with god knows how long beta was.

Trellan

< Tide >

Ravencrest

31. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 01:55:35 PM PST

Q u o t e:

We are sympathetic to players who don't enjoy a match that revolves entirely (key word) around CC'ing or mana-draining the healer. There has to be a place for just killing each other in Arenas. Now there does have to be a place for healing, CC and draining too (and there may not be enough of that right now).

Maybe resilience will get us there. Maybe it won't.

I am very concerned, however, about the HUGE divide (it feels like the grand canyon) between the classes that NEED high amounts of resilience just to have fun in a casual battleground (non-paladin healers, warlocks, shadow priests) and the classes that can simply jump in with whatever gear they've got and contribute and have fun (rogues, holy paladins).

Maybe by the end of Season 5, all of the highest-rated arena matches will require high amounts of resilience to be successful, even for DKs and rogues. But that's not really my main concern. My main concern is for the casuals who can't afford to spend hundreds of hours gathering that gear (it does take a LONG time). For the rogues, DKs, and paladins, they can bypass the PvP gear and at least have fun in a casual setting. For a priest, resto druid or warlock, it feels masochistic. A full set of the crafted PvP gear still results in death during kidney shot for a low-armored target. Maybe the answer is to buff the heck out of the resilience while nerfing other stats, I don't know.

Please figure out a way to bridge this divide. I think it's a serious problem.

[ Post edited by Trellan ]

Pawprint

< Fists of Rage >

Undermine

32. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 01:57:11 PM PST

Personally I'm kinda happy they're trying to make damage for viable in arena.

I know at 70, if you couldn't CC, mana drain, heal or apply a healing debuff (MS/wound), you were pretty much useless in arena for the most part.

I think it's swung too far in favor of the damage dealing atm and I certainly hope they help healers out (be it from resil, stam, something new, whatever), but I don't want arena to go back to what it use to be.

I use to arena on my warrior with a resto shaman partner...and 10-15 minute matches against resto druids + X class were NOT fun for me. (@ 70).

[ Post edited by Pawprint ]

Jood

< Eternal >

Scarlet Crusade

33. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 01:59:00 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I don't think chess is a good analogy for WoW PvP. That's not what we're trying to do with it.

In most chess games, split-second timing isn't an issue. At most you have a timer and have to make a decision within a few seconds. A few seconds can be an eternity in an Arena. Speed shouldn't be everything, but it should definitely count. Manual dexterity is almost irrelevant in chess as long as you can pick up the pieces, but in Arena there is certainly an element to using the ability you want at the precise right moment. Arena is not turn based.

Chess games have almost no random elements. Random elements are very much at the heart of an RPG. Now granted RNG sometimes can take on too much prominence, but the rook is never going to miss the pawn.

Chess is usually one on one. The coordination of a team is very much at the heart of our PvP, even in a BG pug situation.

I think when players bristle at my saying we don't want Arena to be chess, they think I am saying that we don't want interesting decisions, bluffing, counter moves, upsets, and all of those things that make chess interesting. That's not really what I was trying to say. What I meant was that we don't want Arenas to be all about exercising pre-memorized moves. It should be more dynamic than that.

We are sympathetic to players who don't enjoy a match that revolves entirely (key word) around CC'ing or mana-draining the healer. There has to be a place for just killing each other in Arenas. Now there does have to be a place for healing, CC and draining too (and there may not be enough of that right now).

Speaking entirely personally here, I find Arena matches, especially between very highly talented teams to be really exciting, while chess puts me to sleep. I don't download many chess videos.

Maybe chess is a bad analogy, but right now arena is a lot closer to Mortal Kombat than anything else: who has the most overpowered "combo" of moves to splatter the other team as fast as possible. In the current setup, there is little or no place for healing. Claiming "resilience will make everything better" might look great to you, but to the level 80 healers who have little or no level 80 PvP gear and wish to enjoy PvP without spending dozens of hours a week, it might as well be "go home, you might as well not try."

Also, as a former state champion chess player I'm mildly offended. I expected more from someone who I view as intelligent and professional. :-P

Do you have the time to listen to me whine about nothing and everything all at once?

Missvajayjay

Windrunner

34. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 02:03:15 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Errm...no, it really is.

Bad post-launches: AoC is a shining example. It failed at launch and thus it just plain failed. Matrix Online, Auto Assault...all failed at launch.

Now lets look at good betas/post launch: City of Heroes (still alive), EQ2 (still alive...I think?)

...and of course, world of warcraft. True, the first few days didn't really exist because of the amount of people trying to get on, but the game itself was very polished, didn't have too many bugs etc.

Those that do well at launch, tend to do well in the long run...whereas those with bad launches...well, they simply aren't around today.

Wow, you must not have been in Beta or at go live. Telling stories is bad.

I was in beta for WoW and I was one of the first to log in via pre-order.

Most of the time WoW was down... and if you don't think there were bugs, then /laff.

Clearly you don't recall loot lag that made everyone in the game run around on one knee.... or suddenly dying out of nowhere because of server lag and a mob had killed you 50 miles back while the server was frozen...

Or clearly you forgot being killed by mobs that were underground and you couldn't hit them, and they would just follow you around and kill you... Personally I loved being dropped off boats into the ocean and dying.

EQ 2 launch was easy? That is hilarious, also! They compeltely changed many class trees right at the end of beta... launch was a huge bummer with ALL kinds of issues... and they ended up scrapping the tree system, doing 2 revamps and now they are just pumping out expansions true Sony style like some bad Harlequin novels.

Ednar

Thunderlord

35. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 02:06:46 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I am very concerned, however, about the HUGE divide (it feels like the grand canyon) between the classes that NEED high amounts of resilience just to have fun in a casual battleground (non-paladin healers, warlocks, shadow priests) and the classes that can simply jump in with whatever gear they've got and contribute and have fun (rogues, holy paladins).

I agree, explain the logic that allows these classes to have fun, advance their ratings, and get gear faster. While the nonpaladin healers/etc have to spend weeks accumulating enough resilience to level the playing field.

Epic fail!

Stimpack

< Loot Crusade >

Black Dragonflight

36. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 02:09:06 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Wow, you must not have been in Beta or at go live. Telling stories is bad.

I was in beta for WoW and I was one of the first to log in via pre-order.

Most of the time WoW was down... and if you don't think there were bugs, then /laff.

Clearly you don't recall loot lag that made everyone in the game run around on one knee.... or suddenly dying out of nowhere because of server lag and a mob had killed you 50 miles back while the server was frozen...

Or clearly you forgot being killed by mobs that were underground and you couldn't hit them, and they would just follow you around and kill you... Personally I loved being dropped off boats into the ocean and dying.

EQ 2 launch was easy? That is hilarious, also! They compeltely changed many class trees right at the end of beta... launch was a huge bummer with ALL kinds of issues... and they ended up scrapping the tree system, doing 2 revamps and now they are just pumping out expansions true Sony style like some bad Harlequin novels.

I sort of miss the days trying to level in Durotar on my lowbie hunter, when everyone on the server but chat just lagged out. Glorified Webchat. =D

"L2P and stop casting that stupid Angel Form spell, it just kills you after."

Gloss

< Champions of Chaos >

Cho'gall

37. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 02:10:17 PM PST

GC, instead of using "Chess" you should have used 'Dodge Ball" because we all know the one what goes first (I.E. first burst, cc, counter, etc) will most likely win.

Arena, which admittedly, I do not possess any experience in, seems more like dodging damage. Maybe it is designed this way, however, this leaves little desire, as a healer, to join in this aspect of the game.

Most healers (MOST being Shaman, Priest and Paladin) have no way to counter damage fast enough to outlast their opponents or keep their teammates up because a team worth two cents will lockdown or burst down the healer asap. We have no defense and I dare say no damage potential to help our team stay alive or win.

I play on a pvp server and although the ratio of Horde to Alliance is embarrassing, I can say I am killed even one on one in most situations. Am I just a crappy player? Probably. Do the arena issues effect me? Absolutely not.

This is why I think lending an ear to someone who doesn't even play in Arenas is paramount because I have nothing to win or lose by any changes made there.

These are MY perceptions from an outsider looking in and why I would never, ever want to be frustrated by the mechanics of Arena as a healer.

Ceridwyn

< SPQR >

Kargath

38. Re: "Chess Match" 01/02/2009 02:10:26 PM PST

I think the best analogy that I've seen for how healing should be in arena is this: Healers are Tanks in Arena. They are designed to outlast the competition.

However, due to excessive CC/silence/interrupts that do not have shared Diminishing Returns, Healers are now relegated to free kills (except for holy pallies).

I know it might be strange to hear this, but I do have priest/shaman friends who I want to arena with, but they can't stand up to the opposition.

Make it so healers can perform their role in Arena, which is to survive (most of the time), and all will be well.

I don't think res will do this for the low armor classes, so something else needs to be done. Putting all CC/silence/interrupts on shared diminishing returns would go a long way towards fixing that. It's kind of stupid if the other team stacks the best CC classes and automatically wins (rogue,mage,DK).

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING