Hey guys/gals, Awfeel here, and I'm posting basically to help out some of the less formula savvy DPS as well as Tank feral druids that have questions, and we were undoubtedly all there at some point or another.

Basically I'm going to try and simplify everything I say and not get all technical, as well as providing my sources for my information, or most of it at the very least.

First off your talent point allocation for the 3 major frequently asked for talent specs, which are Pure DPS, Hybrid and Tanking. (Shown below)

-DPS-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZEMMsfrz0eR0huAo0Eczb
(Ferocious Bite Talent)

-DPS-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGMsfrz0eR0huAobEczb
(Swipe Talent // Imp MoTW)

-DPS-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGMsfrzbeR0huAo0Eczb
(Swipe Talent // Nurt Instinct)

-Hybrid-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGsfrzceochuAo0E0z
( No I-LotP Build ) Created by Norfin.

-Hybrid-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxMGsfdzceRc0uAo0Eczb
(MSS)

-Hybrid-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGsfrzceRcouAo0E0z
(Swipe Talent // Max Prim Prec)

-Tanking-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscbzceRcczAo0Eczb
(MSS // No Expertise Talent)

-Tanking-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRIczAo0E0z
(Prim Prec // Primal Ten. Talents)

-Tanking-http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRccuAo0E0z
(Prim Prec // KoTJ Talents)


Obviously these specs can be altered as needed or seen fit but, for the most part, many druids spec this way and certain talents (ie ferocity, pred strikes,hotw, sotf) never change from druid to druid even for preference.

****Note for people saying Feral Aggression is better for tanking than Master Shapeshifter - There isn't really one set 25man MT raid spec, because it depends on the rest of your raid.

Also on the Primal Precision thing, it did not dawn on me that most druids reading this would not be expertise capped as there is expertise on a very great many leather pieces at present time. Ive written in the primal precision build accordingly.****

Shredding attacks and Intensity are not desired talents for bear anymore, because we hardly ever run out of rage and our TPS is plenty high enough without them so we can pick up other talents such as Infected Wounds or Having enough points in restoration for Master Shapeshifter which helps both DPS and tanking. This is great for off tanks, which most feral druids are.

As for a rotation, our DPS rotation is complicated and most druids do not acknowledge our DPS as a rotation, but much more of a DoT up timer much like affliction warlocks or arms warriors. I'll get back to that in a second.

Our Tanking rotation is easy as it always has been and has not changed much from level 70 content.
Which most of you know was something close to 4 buttons. Well it still is more or less. All you have to do is make sure FFF is on the target, Maul is queued, Mangle is on cooldown and you are spamming Lacerate. The only thing new is Berserk for TPS and Survival Instincts for Survivability. While using Berserk, simply make sure maul is queued and Laceratex5 stays refreshed but spam mangle instead for that high burst of TPS. Also this expansion it seems barkskin is meant to be used close to every time it's up for certain fights, because it is now useable in forms (ie patchwerk in naxx where the damage is nuts and would be nice to have any of it at all mitigated becuase Diminishing Returns for dodge hurt us for that fight). Keep in mind also, the new Frenzied Regeneration glyph makes you easier to heal while it is active (Increases the healing done to you by 20%).

Multimob tanking isn't much different, but there is one major differing factor, Swipe. Swipe is currently our only AoE threat ability not on some sort of cooldown. Swipe is generally for pulls such as the moving spider pull in the beginning of spider wing in Naxx or for obtaining initial aggro on just a few mobs (3-6) in many places such as mini-waves in Violet Hold. Most feral tanks and even a good percentage of hybrids pick up the Glyph of Maul so that they're maul hits up to two targets making it easier to hold on to several mobs. Unfortunately, unlike Thunderclap (warrior) and consecrate (paladin) swipe is a ~240 degree swing as opposed to 360, but as a trade off it's spammable and we can move while using it. Berserk is also great for keeping 2,3 or perhaps 4, 5 mobs with tab targeting and mangle spamming, as it removes the cooldown on that particular ability. You could also Swipe for initial aggro then Lacerate a mob and tab and swipe again, repeating this process would help gt better aggro for those mobs you Lacerated.

Keep in mind you spend less time Swiping this way and therefore have less global aggro if there are a lot of mobs, in which case Maul+Tabbing / Swipe spam is usually best.

DPS as i said is not so much a rotation, but a constant up-time of your bleeds. The order of importance does not change for these bleeds even though there are small changes to your rotation as your gear gets better, this is mostly due to the fact that crit produces combo points and leave more time after finishers for fillers for your next move and less time spending energy, thereby upping your DPS.

The order of importance for your DPS bleeds // Debuffs are as follows:
-Savage Roar (This is a combo point move and usually gets put up immediately and is usually efficient with 2-5 combo points)
-Mangle (You need this mostly for the debuff not for the damage as it is less DPE than shred, If there is an Arms warrior in the raid with trauma you should find you seldom click this button)
-Rip (Major combo point bleed but you need points to use it, use at 4+ for best results.)
-Rake (This is your major bleed, be sure that it FALLS OFF so you get the last tic or you are wasting energy and the DPE for this move is decreased thereby decreasing your DPS, but be sure to refresh it as soon as it falls off)
-FFF (Obviously this helps DPS because it reduces armor therefore your shreds do more damage)

So following these rules you should open with either pounce or ravage (personal preference it seems), and then use mangle (this before savage roar for the extra combo point or two if your crit is high) then savage roar then rake then shred to 5 combo points and rip.

After that you simply need to keep all of your DPS bleeds up while using tiger's fury to get energy back where necessary. Ferocious Bit cuts your DPS even though you get to see high numbers out of it, so chances are you won't use it. If all of your debuffs are up use shred for combo points and make sure to refresh your lower of your two combo point finishers at 5 points becuase if you sit on five points your simply wasting combo points on any other moves after that.

***** Keep in mind to train your new " Swipe - Cat " ability ! It's amazing for those trash pulls when you're not the one tanking the mobs :) *****


In order to get a better explanation of these rotations for you personally with your gear type and spec i suggest using the most recent version of Rawr and uploading your information from armory. Rawr can also help you gear up and with the assistance from Elitist Jerks forums and Toskks Formulas both of which easily googled you could help your DPS out 2 fold :).

A lot of my information came from these sources and some research myself for personal preference on speccing to see what some people took over others.

I hope this helps a ton and I would really love to see this stickied or at the very least a thread just as good for feral druids stickied, because i would've loved to have seen one when i was gearing up :).

If you have questions about abbreviations I would be happy to answer them.


Your Neighborhood Shapeshifter, Awfeel :)

I found something that will help a great many Feral Druid on the "Elitist Jerks" forum posted by Rarebeast of Spirestone. The information he has granted us are the stats you need to be aware of for Feral Druidism.

All of these are for Level 80 Feral with HotW & SotF. Numbers in (brackets) are with Blessing of Kings :)


Strength
1 Str = 2.332 AP (2.5652 AP) (Cat)
1 Str = 2.12 AP (2.332 AP) (Bear)
1 Str = 2.2472 AP (2.47192 AP) (Bear with PotP)


Agility

1 Agi = 1.166 AP (1.2826 AP) (Cat only)
1 Agi = 0.01272% (0.013992%) Crit
1 Agi = 0.02544 (0.027984) % Dodge
1 Agi = 2.12 (2.332) Armor

78.62 (71.47) Agi = 1% Crit
39.31 (35.73) Agi = 1% Dodge


Stamina
1 Sta = 10.6 (11.66) Health (Cat)
1 Sta = 15.9 (17.49) Health (Bear)


Intellect
1 Int = 19.08 (20.988) Mana
1 Int = 0.007632% (0.0083952%) SpellCrit

131.03 (119.12) Int = 1% SpellCrit

Intellect also increases the amount of health & mana regen you get from Spirit - not very important for ferals


Spirit
Spirit increases your out of combat health regen and your out of 5sec rule mana regen - not very important for ferals


Crit Rating
1 CritRating = 0.022% Crit
45.91 CritRating = 1% Crit


Dodge Rating
1 DodgeRating = 0.025% Dodge
39.35 DodgeRating = 1% Dodge


Haste Rating
1 HasteRating = 0.030% Haste
32.79 HasteRating = 1% Haste


Hit Rating
1 HitRating = 0.030% Hit
32.79 HitRating = 1% Hit

Cap vs Level 80 mob = 5% Hit = 163.95 HitRating
Cap vs Level 81 mob = 5.5% Hit = 180.34 HitRating
Cap vs Level 82 mob = 6% Hit = 196.74 HitRating
Cap vs Level 83 mob = 8% Hit = 262.32 HitRating (Raid Bosses)


Expertise Rating
1 ExpertiseRating = 0.030% reduction in dodge & parry chance
32.79 ExpertiseRating = 1% reduction in dodge & parry chance

Cap vs Level 80 mob = 5%(Dodge) / ?%(Parry) = 163.95 / ? ExpertiseRating
Cap vs Level 81 mob = 5.5%(Dodge) / ?%(Parry) = 180.34 / ? ExpertiseRating
Cap vs Level 82 mob = 6%(Dodge) / ?%(Parry) = 196.74 / ? ExpertiseRating
Cap vs Level 83 mob = 6.5%(Dodge) / 15%(Parry) = 213.13 / 491.85 ExpertiseRating (Raid Bosses)

The 10 Expertise we get from Primal Precision is equivalent to 81.975 ExpertiseRating so subtract that from the above figures if you have that talent.


Defense Rating
1 DefenseRating = 0.008% dodge and 0.008% chance to be missed and 0.008% reduced chance to be crit (Crit reduction not needed for PvE if you have SotF )
122.96 Defense Rating = 1% chance to dodge and 1% chance to be missed and 1% reduced chance to be crit (Crit reduction not needed for PvE if you have SotF )

1 DefRating = 0.64 DodgeRating (counting misses as dodges)


ArmorPenetration Rating
1 ArPenRating = 0.065% ArmorPenetration
15.395 ArPenRating = 1% Armor Penetration


Resilience
81.975 Resilience = -1% chance to be crit, -2.2% crit damage, -1% DoT damage & -2.2% mana drain reduction

1229.62 Resilience = 33% reduction from crit damage = the cap for this part of resilience's effect


Armor
1 Armor = 4.7 Armor (Bear)
1 Armor = 5.17 Armor (Bear with Thick Hide)

Damage Reduction from Armor % = Armor * 100 / (Armor + (467.5 * AttackerLevel - 22167.5))

DR% for Lvl83 Boss mobs = Armor * 100 / (Armor + 16635)

Armor cap (75% DR) for Lvl83 Boss mobs = 49905 Armor


I hope this helps as much as my post did.

---

Q u o t e:
Our Tanking rotation is easy as it always has been and has not changed much from level 70 content.
Which most of you know was something close to 4 buttons. Well it still is more or less. All you have to do is make sure FFF is on the target, Maul is queued, Mangle is on cooldown and you are spamming Lacerate. The only thing new is Berserk for TPS and Survival Instincts for Survivability. While using Berserk, simply make sure maul is queued and Laceratex5 stays refreshed but spam mangle instead for that high burst of TPS. Also this expansion it seems barkskin is meant to be used close to every time it's up for certain fights (ie patchwerk in naxx where the damage is nuts and would be nice to have any of it at all mitigated becuase Diminishing Returns for dodge hurt us for that fight).

---

That may work well for smaller pulls but what about 4-6 mob pulls? You may want to split your tanking rotation into small/single pulls to multimob pulls that will require swipe. I did a search and you never mention swipe which is your bread and butter in larger pulls.

Please add information on multimob tanking before I will request for sticky.

You also should include rip in your DPS priorty list. I'm not an expert but I know you want Rip mixed in there as well.
Edit: Added rip info.

---

Q u o t e:


That may work well for smaller pulls but what about 4-6 mob pulls? You may want to split your tanking rotation into small/single pulls to multimob pulls that will require swipe. I did a search and you never mention swipe which is your bread and butter in larger pulls.

Please add information on multimob tanking before I will request for sticky.

You also should include rip in your DPS priorty list. I'm not an expert but I know you want Rip mixed in there as well.
Edit: Added rip info.

---

Edited and Fixt accordingly :)

---

Q u o t e:

Shredding attacks and Intensity are not desired talents for bear anymore, because we hardly ever run out of rage and our TPS is plenty high enough without them so we can pick up other talents such as Infected Wounds or Having enough points in restoration for Master Shapeshifter which helps both DPS and tanking. This is great for off tanks, which most feral druids are.

---

If you are a pure tank, I get this, but if you are doing any amount of DPS in cat form, Shredding attacks is way better then Master Shape shifter.

Also, spending 3 points in Natural Shapeshift is of zero use in PvE unless you find yourself healing a lot and you need to conserve mana. With Improved Mangle, you should have very little problems with mana. On Loatheb, I can switch out almost every time to cast a heal and never run out of mana.

So is the census in on Shred spec being significantly more DPS than mangle spec?

---

Q u o t e:
So is the census in on Shred spec being significantly more DPS than mangle spec?

---

It's there. That said, there are advantages to Manglespec, not least among them that if you're primarily a tank, you can do as suggested, skipping Shredding Attacks along with Rend & Tear (because, frankly, we don't really need more single-target aggro in Bear) and free up a lot of talent points to use in tanky abilities.

I do Manglespam and it's reasonable DPS. The more mobile the fight is, the closer I get to where I'd be with Shred, because Mangle loses the positional dependency and the rotation's a little more flexible.

Anyway, it's an option if you want to be heavy-tank, and we're still better off than, say, a prot warrior DPSing, but there's a difference that you should be aware of if a lot of your role is DPS, especially since the abilities you tend to get with the extra points are things like Primal Tenacity -- nice to have, but kind of marginal.

I'll add this on Lacerate -- since the hotfix of +50% threat to Swipe recently, Swipe is better aggro on a single target than Lacerate is. However, until some goofy high amount of AP, a full stack of Lacerate actually does better DPS than Shred, to twist the old model on its head. The difference still isn't huge, but Lacerate kind of pales as a tool in most cases now.

---

Q u o t e:


If you are a pure tank, I get this, but if you are doing any amount of DPS in cat form, Shredding attacks is way better then Master Shape shifter.

Also, spending 3 points in Natural Shapeshift is of zero use in PvE unless you find yourself healing a lot and you need to conserve mana. With Improved Mangle, you should have very little problems with mana. On Loatheb, I can switch out almost every time to cast a heal and never run out of mana.

---

Most hybrids are hybrid for the fact that their guild needs the tank ability more than the dps side. They dps when they are not in need of tanking. That being said, shredding attacks is half as useful becuase we don't need the rage for Lacerate because our rage is so abundant. So master shapeshifter is usually the choice people go with because it helps DPS as well as your damage and also TPS (not that TPS is needed) in bear form.

bump.

Your tanking build is screwed up.

Primal Precision > MSS. If you are under the Expertise soft cap, Primal Precision will result in 5% more attacks landing vs 4% increased damage so that's a no brainer. If you are over the Expertise soft cap, it will result in 2.5% more attacks landing (granted, less of a benefit than MSS) but you get a reduction in Parry Thrash along with it.

From a DPS stand point, Primal Precision > MSS unless you happen to be Expertise soft capped and hit capped. With a tanking spec lacking Shredding Attacks/Predatory Instincts your DPS will be garbage anyway so it's a moot point though.

why would you need to dps as a tank? the whole point of a tank is to tank. hybrid would be the "off tank // dps" build you're probably referring to. i sperated them for a reason.

---

Q u o t e:
why would you need to dps as a tank? the whole point of a tank is to tank. hybrid would be the "off tank // dps" build you're probably referring to. i sperated them for a reason.

---

It's a moot point regardless. Given the choice between Primal Precision and MSS, you should pick Primal Precision if only for the parry thrash reduction.

I only commented on it because...

---

Q u o t e:
Shredding attacks and Intensity are not desired talents for bear anymore, because we hardly ever run out of rage and our TPS is plenty high enough without them so we can pick up other talents such as Infected Wounds or Having enough points in restoration for Master Shapeshifter which helps both DPS and tanking. This is great for off tanks, which most feral druids are.

---

... you did.

Not only is Master a pure DPS talent, it's horribly inefficient from a tanking standpoint, since you're essentially using 5 talent points to get the 2 effective ones from Master. And whether those come out of Naturalist or some deep Feral Talent, it's a hard sell.

The Natural pre-req is really what sours Master as a PvE talent.

For the tanking cooldowns, you mentioned berzerk and survival instincts. Yet you forgot to mention that barkskin can now be used in forms and glyphed frenzied regen can be a very useful oh crap buttons as well.

Pretty much the fastest sticky ever.

If I'm only worried about dps, I usually open with mangle
I think ravage and pounce are too costly to open with. Only pounce if the tank can use the stun mitigation.

I like this opening:
Mangle
Savage Roar
Rake
build to 5 (using TF)
rip
Mangle
Rake
Savage Roar
... begin prioritizing

I've noticed other people doing mangle, rake... which confuses me. Since I'd rather get my rake going under the influence of SR.

If I open with berserk, I lead with ravage (since the extra cost is moot)

I am surprised this got stickied. You skipped Primal Precision, which is quite a powerful tanking ability, because of the expertise.

And I also really do not believe that 5 talent points are worth 4% damage, in bearform.

You really don't need master shape shifter, if you are mt'ing something, you are not going to be switching in and out of bearform, so those talent points are wasted if you primarilly tank. And that means you are basically spending 5 points for 4% extra damage. Those talents would be more beneficial spent elsewhere.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscbzceRcczAo0Eczb

Your pure tanking build is missing Primal Precision. You can afford to drop 2 points into Imp Leader of the pack for pure tanking