We know DKs which are not holding a fast-hitting melee mob to rely on rune strike procs are gimped threat wise (this is getting worse next patch with a threat-buffed RS). A situation similar to pallies in BC, when they didn't have HotR or ShoR and a chunk of their threat came from getting hit with melee attacks.

Now, early on DKs were supposed to be the best caster tanks, however blizz abandoned the whole "niche" idea in favor of "bring the player, not the class" which in many ways was good move. Now, the problem is DKs and their reliance on Rune Strike for proper threat is that we're probably the WORST tanks when it comes to casters, not because of anti-magic defenses (which we have plenty of), but because of poor threat generation (losing aggro).

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So, is this Intended?

The fact is our tanking viability should not rely solely upon a random proc (rune strike) - which it does currently.

When rune strike procs very often in the beginning of a fight, our tps is top notch. When it doesn't proc, we have dps just standing around asking if there's any way we can up the threat.

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So yeah, I agree. It's a flawed system...and if a solution is not found soon, dps' threat will scale horribly against ours and we will be sidelined. GG

I certainly hope it isn't intended. DK tanks would do a lot better if there was little dependance on Rune Strike for threat. It just seems like a jumbled up idea that didn't go through enough testing on different bosses to see how it would turn out.

'Heroic Over-Revenge'? It's basically a Heroic Strike that has more limitations.

Sounds like a working as intended to me.

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Q u o t e:
Rune Strike is largely to make up for the fact that DK tanks are really penalized for failing to land attacks. For example if you open with a Plague Strike and get a miss or dodge, your rotation is thrown off and your threat will be lower.

It is dependent on a proc so that you have an incentive to hit other buttons and to make it less useful when doing dps. It is on next swing so that it doesn't tie up a GCD. It can't be avoided so that DKs who miss a Plague Strike and a Rune Strike aren't doubly screwed.

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At the very start of the pull, I don't have any runic power and I don't have 3.5 seconds to wait for my next swing before the DPS start going at it. =/

Sounds then like we're dealing with side effect of how Rune Strike is currently implemented. I don't think it's broken, As long as you guys make sure DK's get enough threat from their regular rotations as to not be completely dependant on RS, I'd say we'll be fine.

A nice change would be to allow us to parry spells (yeah, spell deflection) and have THAT proc rune strike too. This would also add value to parry for us DK's.

Another possible change, maybe throw a cooldown on RS so its not spammed and relied upon for threat (as it is now) but it still keeps it's purpose as mentioned by GC (kind of a threat "oh %$&%" button). Then, if needed, buff threat on other abilities.

I'm sure theres plenty of ideas to throw around.

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Q u o t e:


At the very start of the pull, I don't have any runic power and I don't have 3.5 seconds to wait for my next swing before the DPS start going at it. =/

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Even with the "new threat world order" dps jumping on monsters as if they were cheesburgers for a starving war prisioner isn't really something that should happen.

All it takes is counting to... three. probably 2.

I got used to always pulling with Death&Decay, too <.< It's one of the best possible threat moves and it doesn't miss.

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Q u o t e:
Rune Strike is largely to make up for the fact that DK tanks are really penalized for failing to land attacks. For example if you open with a Plague Strike and get a miss or dodge, your rotation is thrown off and your threat will be lower.

It is dependent on a proc so that you have an incentive to hit other buttons and to make it less useful when doing dps. It is on next swing so that it doesn't tie up a GCD. It can't be avoided so that DKs who miss a Plague Strike and a Rune Strike aren't doubly screwed.

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The issue is though.... Rune strike is intended to make up for how much failed attacks hurt a death knight...

But is the fact that our tanking ability is built around spamming rune strike constantly fine? Especially since it gimps our tanking ability against enemies that cast or attack slowly


also for the above:

Regardless of whether DPS should or shouldn't be patient, having a class require more time to gain solid aggro isn't a good thing..

neither is having a class who suffers a huge TPS penalty against spellcaster mobs.

I've never had any trouble holding aggro unless I was using DW, and that's only because A.) My weapons sucked and B.) I had little to no hit. I regularly tank Naxx, Sarth, Maly, & Arch and have no threat gen issues at all. Feel free to armory me.

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Q u o t e:
Rune Strike is largely to make up for the fact that DK tanks are really penalized for failing to land attacks. For example if you open with a Plague Strike and get a miss or dodge, your rotation is thrown off and your threat will be lower.

It is dependent on a proc so that you have an incentive to hit other buttons and to make it less useful when doing dps. It is on next swing so that it doesn't tie up a GCD. It can't be avoided so that DKs who miss a Plague Strike and a Rune Strike aren't doubly screwed.

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I'd like to point out that while you explained the reasoning beyond Rune Strike's current functionality, you didn't actually address the OP's concern.

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Q u o t e:
Rune Strike is largely to make up for the fact that DK tanks are really penalized for failing to land attacks. For example if you open with a Plague Strike and get a miss or dodge, your rotation is thrown off and your threat will be lower.

It is dependent on a proc so that you have an incentive to hit other buttons and to make it less useful when doing dps. It is on next swing so that it doesn't tie up a GCD. It can't be avoided so that DKs who miss a Plague Strike and a Rune Strike aren't doubly screwed.

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Is it intended that it procs/costs so much that if you use it every time its up you wont have any RP left for IBF, AMS, or FS?

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Q u o t e:
I've never had any trouble holding aggro unless I was using DW, and that's only because A.) My weapons sucked and B.) I had little to no hit. I regularly tank Naxx, Sarth, Maly, & Arch and have no threat gen issues at all. Feel free to armory me.

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I'm geared slightly better than you (and assuming your DPS's gear is on par with yours), and I'm beginning to see the issue the OP has brought up. It's by no means critical yet, but I can definitely see it creeping up on me on certain fights.

GC, I appreciate the fact that you read and responded to this thread, but are you aware of the fact that our single target threat against well-geared dps is dependant on rune strike procs?

Without rune strike procs, our tps is absolutely horrible. The OP is asking about mainly magic-dealing bosses and bosses with very slow swing timers. Clearly if we can't Rune Strike often on these bosses, we have dps that are just sitting there waiting to dps.

Obviously this cannot be working as intended.

edit: and to save the armory'ing, yes I've tanked 15/15 naxx and malygos, sarth with drakes, etc.

GC, I understand the basic formula for Runestrike, and how it is built around the basic of missing on your opener, but what about Malygos? What about mobs that throw spells 90% of the time vs a melee hit? Runestrike won't even proc from spells, meaning our biggest threart generator in a battle is sitting waiting for our awsome dodge or parry. Runestrike needs to have some sort of proc on spells too for threat, if your worried about PvP basis, the upcoming nerf to dmg and scale to threat should help, or you could even make a RS that procs on magic not do any dmg but just threat. thx.

I understand that RS is there to cover for the high avoidance chance tanks have to deal with, but is there any possibility of that high boss avoidance being changed for DK tanks rather than just having a workaround in rune strike? I can't speak for others, but I know I'd love to have much smoother rotations as a tank like the DPS DKs do and to be able to rely upon them rather than on Rune Strike and what you can manage to land. All these missed abilities and delayed rotations just feels very sloppy. Granted, I'm at a lower gear level and the situation would definitely improve as I got more tank gear, especially more tank gear with expertise and hit, but I'd love to see smoother tank rotations built in.

I don't mean just change boss avoidance to be lower, I mean perhaps have some more of baked in expertise, hit, or dodge/parry ignore somewhere into DK tanks.

(I made a way longer post (probably longer than it needed to be) on this topic here with possible ideas and why they probably wouldn't work out: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13129078969&postId=132744646983&sid=1#780 )

The issue I have with RS reliance is the ironic level of difficulty a DK has tanking caster mobs, i.e. situations where rune strike will rarely be up.

All tank dps/tps suffers against casters. This isn't a DK specific problem.

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Q u o t e:
All tank dps/tps suffers against casters. This isn't a DK specific problem.

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Suffer to the same extent as a death knight? where rune strike is well over 20% of my threat?

And also supposedly tanking casters is the DKs specific niche.