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Q u o t e:
Can we get some confirmation on this? I often raid with another boomkin, and we both have points in IFF for the crit. If it really only boosts the crit of the druid who cast the FF, then it would make no sense for both of us to spec into this talent, as only one of us could benefit from the bonus crit. Since the other boomkin typically applies IFF, if I in fact gain no benefit from having points in the talent, I'd like to know so I can put those points into another talent. Thanks.

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Any confirmation on this yet? I raid with another moonkin and if it has to be my FF on the target to get the crit bonus then I can put those points elsewhere as well.

My prediction is that Improved Faerie Fire will change at some point in the next year or two. :o)

Down with Imp FF! Up with talents that make sense!

Don't forget the Faerie Fire (Feral) issues:

While tanking we cannot refresh any Faerie Fire debuff if the target is also affected by Myseri (Shadow Priest debuff), we have to wait the FF goes off and then re-apply!!! It's a bug, so it has to be fixed.

While tanking, we cannot refresh the (Improoved) FF, "it's a powerful spell... blah, blah, blah..." all the time. That is right, but the FFF Dmg (and +Threat) can't be even applied.

The only new "spell" for Threat rotation we received at WoTLK was the "new" FFF (Bear) and we can't use it most of the time.

My sugestion?

Turn FFF into a different debuff, or just make it able to apply the Bear damage.

Man that is one messed up answer from GC. I translate it as "I have no idea if it does, but i'd GUESS...."

Anyway, here is what it was when i tested several months ago. 3/3 talent gives you 3% crit from any FF, iFF or FFF. Want to test (or retest since i am to lazy to)? Get a non-iFF druid friend to come with to any target dummy.
You strip naked /whistle
You DPS the dummie to get a baseline crit rate *
You apply iFF and DPS *
Have the other druid apply FFF, You DPS *
Have the other druid apply FF, You DPS *
*Repeating each step until you think you have a decent sized sample, +100 casts should suffice for most people. Wrath gives a larger sample size per mana\time

Now compare the Crit rate. By getting naked you reduced your crit rate to low single digits so that a 3% crit buff makes a huge difference, where as a 3% crit bonus to someone with 40% can be a RNG error without huge sample sizes

A major problem that comes up with this talent however is not just the buff management, but the fact that you cannot tell if your buff is actually up via the UI (since the UI will only say that a Faerie Fire-like buff is active). Its like this...

Druid1 casts Faerie Fire - has IFF, so they get 3% crit.
Druid2 casts Faerie Fire - Druid1 now sees their buff fall off (because its been effectively refreshed on the mob).
Druid1 now has no idea how long they will continue to get the crit, and may in fact think that it was removed for some other reason, thus causing them to either estimate the time left, or recast it. The former they may lose DPS, the latter they are guaranteed to.

It would honestly be a lot better all around if IFF increased the duration of FF along with the +Hit. Then it wouldn't get overwritten by other casters (as easily at least).

"We are seeing a lot more raids pugged these days, and in any case, you often still want the buff when you are soloing."

this particular buff is rarely utilized while soloing. You generally need to have a raid beating on your target to make it worthwhile to cast, otherwise you should have just shot another wrath

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Q u o t e:
I am saying the tooltip, which currently reads:

Your Faerie Fire spell also increases the chance the target will be hit by spell attacks by 3%, and increases the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 3% on targets afflicted by Faerie Fire.

Should probably read:

Your Faerie Fire and Feral Faerie Fire spells also increase the chance the target will be hit by spell attacks by 3%, and increase the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 3% on targets afflicted by your Faerie Fire or Feral Faerie Fire.

One of the issues we are currently discussing is what to do in the case where someone chooses a talent that they end up not using because someone else in the group also has the same buff of equal or greater potency. To be fair though this is not a new problem. Raids always had to manage buffs like Spirit or Kings that were talented. I think groups usually worked around that by just grouping with the same people a lot and making sure someone had the talent. We are seeing a lot more raids pugged these days, and in any case, you often still want the buff when you are soloing. It is something we're discussing.

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IFF is something that NO moonkin would EVER take for soloing. In my trash set, I have 108 hit rating (which, BTW, is over double what I need to be hit capped against a heroic dungeon (not raid) boss). As a spellcaster, I have NO use for an armor debuff. Why do I want an additional three per cent critical chance (i.e. random damage modifier) increase on a mob that's going to last for only two or three spells? That's a complete waste of a GCD better spent casting wrath and knocking a third or half of the life of it?

IFF is a pure RAID talent and only taken if 1) the caster(s) doesn't/don't have enough hit rating on gear, AND 2) no other caster (read shadow priest) is present mooting IFF. Having to cast IFF at all is a DPS loss if you and/or the raid casters are already hit-capped. So, no one's going to cast it just for the hell of it because they want "free" crit as the 40 second duration isn't long enough to make it worth it. Two immediate solutions come to mind: Either increase the duration of the spell or increase the critical chance so that the potential (read chance) damage afforded by the extra crit would compensate for the shorter cast time.

And improved Kings/Spirit have real tangible results for soloing and non-raid instancing, unlike IFF which doesn't even make sense to use for a normal or heroic dungeon because it's not worth the cast time if you're hit-capped and if you're not even hit-capped for a heroic dungeon you have more issues to deal with.

what about IFF locking the feral druids out of casting FFF at all? Would it be possible to change it to where they just refresh the timer while still keeping the IFF effects?

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Q u o t e:

One of the issues we are currently discussing is what to do in the case where someone chooses a talent that they end up not using because someone else in the group also has the same buff of equal or greater potency. To be fair though this is not a new problem. Raids always had to manage buffs like Spirit or Kings that were talented. I think groups usually worked around that by just grouping with the same people a lot and making sure someone had the talent. We are seeing a lot more raids pugged these days, and in any case, you often still want the buff when you are soloing. It is something we're discussing.

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Does this mean you are discussing Unleashed Rage and Improved Windfury Totem too?

(I apologize to my furry brethren for interrupting your discussion about Faerie Fire, a buff that I very much enjoy, with an ongoing enhancement shaman concern)

Lets assume for a second that a moonkin does receive the 3% crit from FFF or normal FF cast by another druid, without having cast FF on the mob himself. Basically, he is getting 3% crit for free.

Is this that big of an issue?

High end raiding moonkins have been speccing into IFF for a month to get the extra 3% crit. I have looked at my own WWS reports and those of several cutting edge guilds that are in the top 10 or 20 guilds in the world. Most of them seem to have a Moonkin on their roster now (woot!), but none of them are destroying the meters relative to the other DPS classes.

It was my understanding that as a hybrid class we are supposed to be close but still a little behind the more "pure" DPS classes. In my opinion that is where we are.

IFF my not have been intended to work with the FF cast by another player, but if it does, it obviously hasn't upset the balance of the game. Therefore, in my opinion it shouldn't be "fixed".

Edit: On another topic, can update the Nature's Grace tool tip to say that it lowers the global cooldown. taht is a fairly major component of the talent and should be listed in my opinion.

Why hello thar Grand!

sorry to interrupt druid-y business but just wanted to say drop in and say /moo

carry on.

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Q u o t e:

One of the issues we are currently discussing is what to do in the case where someone chooses a talent that they end up not using because someone else in the group also has the same buff of equal or greater potency. To be fair though this is not a new problem. Raids always had to manage buffs like Spirit or Kings that were talented. I think groups usually worked around that by just grouping with the same people a lot and making sure someone had the talent. We are seeing a lot more raids pugged these days, and in any case, you often still want the buff when you are soloing. It is something we're discussing.

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Have the game play engineers thought of adding diminishing returns on like buffs? (1/2, 1/4, 1/8, ...).

Obvious issues would be:

Q: Is it worth adding to the buff/debuff stack?
A: Add number to the buff/debuff showing the number of existing stacks on the target.

Q: Which buff/debuff is mine? (potential UI nightmare)
A: Add a thick outline to the buff/debuff icon on the target if you contributed to that buff/debuff.
A: Easy mode would add different color outlines: red if you can add to the stack but haven't and green if you have added to the stack.

Q: Balancing class/groups/raid encounters.
A: Coding how the buffs/debuffs stack and what the diminish returns are is trivial (really just a matrix). The real issue is how to balance the encounters. Not to mention that not all buffs/debuffs should have the same coefficient on diminishing returns.