This is intended to be an all-encompassing guide to the common questions people have about mutilate rogues. If you have comments or suggestions, please leave a friendly reply and I'll add in your comment with a citation so everyone knows how smart you are.

F.A.Q.

What's a good PvE mutilate build?

This is the generally accepted build for PvE mutilate:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ef0exoVboIzAo0xV0hZxb

Here is an alternate build with Vigor and Fleet Footed (instead of Murder, which isn't useful for Naxxramas). If you don't want Vigor, put the extra point in Ruthlessness:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0gfoegoV0oIzAo0xV0hZxb

What's a good PvP mutilate build?

There are many variations on this spec, most of which are still 41/5/25. The following is what I use:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxcoeMoirofzZ0xZebfb0hdb

What daggers should I use for PvE mutilate?

Generally, you want to use faster daggers. This leads to a few things: more poison procs, and more Focused Attacks procs. Although your mutilates will hit for less than if you were using slow daggers, the DPS loss from this is more than made up for by having extra energy and poisoning the enemy more often. A great starter weapon is the Librarian's Paper Cutter (abbreviated LPC), which is 1.3 speed and is generally considered the best mutilate PvE dagger until Naxx/heroic weapons. It can be bought on the auction house for around 100g, depending on your server.

What daggers should I use for PvP mutilate?

This depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to take people down quickly (burst), lean towards slower daggers. Your mutilates will hit harder, and although your overall DPS may be lower, you have a better chance of taking someone down in a short time period. If you are looking for sustained damage, use faster daggers - just like you would in PvE. Faster daggers = less burst, but more damage over time due to Focused Attacks and poison procs.

The "best" PvP mutilate daggers are currently Sinister Revenge (25 man Kel'Thuzad, Naxxramas) and Murder (25 man Sapphiron, Naxxramas).

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40386
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40368

What glyphs should I use?

There has been a lot of debate about this. I'll tell you what I use, and what your options are.

PvE Major: Mutilate + Hunger for Blood, then 1 of your choice.
PvP Major: Vigor + Mutilate + Eviscerate, assuming a 41/5/25 spec.
Minor: None of these are "necessary" per se, but they can be useful at times. Blurred Speed, Vanish (debatable), Pick Pocket

How much of X stat do I need?

Hit rating:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxcoeMoirofzZ0xZebfb0hdb
All others:
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

What poisons should I use for PvE? PvP?

PvE: Instant/Deadly (NEW SINCE 3.0.8)
PvP: Wound/Mind Numbing, but it's situational. If you are not fighting a caster and have time to switch poisons, go with Wound/Wound. This allows for maximum poison damage while simultaneously applying Crippling Poison thanks to Deadly Brew.

What rotation should I use for PvE?

This is covered very well in the Elitist Jerks WotLK Pocket Guide (linked above), but I will give an abridged version here:

Open with Garrote (if stealthed) or Mutilate if unstealthed, regardless of whether the mob is poisoned.
Use Hunger for Blood.
At this point you will have between 1-3 combo points. Slice and Dice.
Mutilate to 4-5 combo points.
Envenom (resets Slice and Dice to 5 point maximum)
Mutilate to 4-5 combo points.
Rupture
Mutilate to 4-5 combo points.
Envenom
Etc.

Make sure that Hunger for Blood does not fade. Priority #1 is HfB, #2 is Slice and Dice, #3 is Rupture/Envenom. Remember this and you're one step closer to having a good mutilate rotation.

What trinkets should I shoot for?

The best rogue trinkets right now are Fury of the Five Flights (25 man Sartharion), Darkmoon Card: Greatness (Nobles Deck), and Mirror of Truth.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40431
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44253
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40684

What gems should I use?

GENERAL ADVICE:
For red slots, Agility and Attack Power are pretty much equal. For yellow slots, below poison hit cap, go with Glinting, otherwise go with Agility/Crit (Deadly Monarch or better). For blue, Agi/Stam (Shifting Twilight Opal or better). Remember, this is assuming that you need blue/yellow for your meta slot, or the socket bonus is worth getting. If the socket bonus isn't worthwhile - for instance, stamina or dodge rating - just stack Agility or Attack Power gems.

What enchants should I use?

Chest: +Stats
Gloves: +Attack Power
Shoulders: Sons of Hodir Exalted Inscription (AP/Crit)
Legs: Icescale (AP/Crit)
Belt: Belt Buckle (extra socket)
Cloak: +Agility
Helm: Ebon Blade Revered (AP/Crit)
Boots: Icewalker (Crit/Hit)
Bracers: +Attack Power

Weapons
Main hand: Berserking
Offhand: Mongoose

Some people argue that Berserking is better on both weapons, which may be true. The argument on the other side is that Mongoose is considerably cheaper, and the difference between the 2 is no more than ~10 dps, not to mention the PvP downside of having reduced armor.

Does Glyph of Sap (+10 seconds to Sap) work in PvP?

No. It is fully functional in PvE, but adds nothing to Sap's duration against other players.

What attacks can Focused Attacks proc from?

Any melee critical strike, including those from special attacks (Mutilate, Envenom, etc). It will not proc from poison crits.

Tricks of the Trade seems like a nifty ability. Who should I use it on?

If you don't foresee aggro being a problem, put it on your top DPS'er - it can't be used on yourself, and transfers ALL of your threat to the target for the next 6 seconds, but increases the damage they do by 15%. With only a 30 second cooldown, this can be a big DPS upgrade for your group or raid. I generally put it on other rogues, and they put it on me so our threat transfer "cancels out".

What's the point of Fan of Knives? The damage is pitiful.

While the damage isn't great, it's a very useful tool for getting other rogues out of stealth (and also for throwing in some AoE damage on trash mobs). If you see a rogue stealth while you're fighting someone else, you can pop it and get them out of stealth so they can't open on you - this is especially true in arenas!

I have a question that wasn't answered here!

Feel free to post in this thread or contact me in game - Cruisington on the Illidan server. I have been playing my rogue less frequently the past few weeks, so look for me on Stormreaver as Cruisington the undead Death Knight.

for pve, instant poison should always go on the offhand. If your daggers are different speeds, put the fast one in the offhand.

As far as openers go, it's better to just mutilate instead of garrote, and use this sequence:

mutilate> snd > mutilate > rupture > mutilate > envenom, then go into cycle logic...

all of that assuming 4 or more cp for the finishers, if not, mutilate again.

Very simple and good guide but might want to add stuff like what to gem and enchants

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Q u o t e:
for pve, instant poison should always go on the offhand. If your daggers are different speeds, put the fast one in the offhand.

As far as openers go, it's better to just mutilate instead of garrote, and use this sequence:

mutilate> snd > mutilate > rupture > mutilate > envenom, then go into cycle logic...

all of that assuming 4 or more cp for the finishers, if not, mutilate again.

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wat? why is Mut a better opener than garrote? why waste 2cp on an snd that gets refreshed to max with an envenom?

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Q u o t e:


wat? why is Mut a better opener than garrote? why waste 2cp on an snd that gets refreshed to max with an envenom?

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Umm, because the extra snd time you gain from 2 more cp lets you use rupture before envenom without snd running out.

The extra dmg from mutilate + more rupture up time outweighs the dmg from garrote. Plus it's always nicer to get full swing into your cycle sooner.

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Q u o t e:


Umm, because the extra snd time you gain from 2 more cp lets you use rupture before envenom without snd running out.

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Wrong, if you have glyph of vigor you have more than enough time to do
garrote -> snd -> 4-5pt rupture -> mutilate -> envenom

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Q u o t e:


Wrong, if you have glyph of vigor you have more than enough time to do
garrote -> snd -> 4-5pt rupture -> mutilate -> envenom

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glyph of vigor? I thought we were talking about optimizing for pve?

I don't get the attachment to garrote though... it only does around 3k dmg.. a crit mutilate will do more than that and give you more combo points, and there isn't risk of snd dropping before you can envenom after the rupture.

Ok, admittedly, I am not a PVEer, I dont usually spend time thinking about PVE specs, gear, and glyphs, but Ive been looking at some of these mutilate builds, and strategies and some of them have me wondering wtf people are thinking.

To those who say "Mutilate out of stealth, instead of garrote/ambush" WTF? In a PVE mutilate situation, the only glyphs you should have (Major) are Rupture, SND, and GARROTE. Now, a talented (Opportunity + bloodspatter) and GLYPHED garrote is absolutely beautiful. 5k damage isnt far fetched for most people in good gear. If you think mutilating without a poison counter is better than that, I dunno what to tell you. Now, if your raid has poison on the target already, its possible that your mutilate may do more damage than the garrote, but it will cost 10 more energy, and if neither crit, you are left with about half of what the garrote did.

Hunger for blood dropping? Really? Bind it to SHIFT+whatever your envenom hotkey is. EVERY other time you envenom, simply tap envenom, then Shift and tap it again, that way you dont have to even look at the timer.(You should be envenoming roughly once every 14 seconds, faster procs, and focused attacks could get you there faster, but whats a few extra seconds lost on HFB)


/rant feel free to slap some sense into me if Im far off, but please provide an explanation along with it

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Q u o t e:


glyph of vigor? I thought we were talking about optimizing for pve?

I don't get the attachment to garrote though... it only does around 3k dmg.. a crit mutilate will do more than that and give you more combo points, and there isn't risk of snd dropping before you can envenom after the rupture.

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What other glyph would you get other than rupture and snd for mutilate build in pve?
Crit mutilate without a poisoned boss will get you terrible mutilate damage.
With the rotation I gave, you have approximately 8-9~ seconds of SnD left (the 1 cp from the beginning) after you put up rupture. Also, rupture gets up on the boss quicker, which will lead to more dps.

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Q u o t e:
Ok, admittedly, I am not a PVEer, I dont usually spend time thinking about PVE specs, gear, and glyphs, but Ive been looking at some of these mutilate builds, and strategies and some of them have me wondering wtf people are thinking.

To those who say "Mutilate out of stealth, instead of garrote/ambush" WTF? In a PVE mutilate situation, the only glyphs you should have (Major) are Rupture, SND, and GARROTE. Now, a talented (Opportunity + bloodspatter) and GLYPHED garrote is absolutely beautiful. 5k damage isnt far fetched for most people in good gear. If you think mutilating without a poison counter is better than that, I dunno what to tell you. Now, if your raid has poison on the target already, its possible that your mutilate may do more damage than the garrote, but it will cost 10 more energy, and if neither crit, you are left with about half of what the garrote did.

Hunger for blood dropping? Really? Bind it to SHIFT+whatever your envenom hotkey is. EVERY other time you envenom, simply tap envenom, then Shift and tap it again, that way you dont have to even look at the timer.(You should be envenoming roughly once every 14 seconds, faster procs, and focused attacks could get you there faster, but whats a few extra seconds lost on HFB)


/rant feel free to slap some sense into me if Im far off, but please provide an explanation along with it

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You've admitted that you have very little pve experience, yet you adamantly think you're correct on an assumption in opposition to many people with much more pve knowledge and experience than yourself. Plus the difference in dmg between using garrote or mutilate to open is negligible over the course of a fight, I just like using mutilate to get the cp to smooth out my cycle sooner.

The target will frequently be poisoned, but the benefit still remains even if it isn't. Also keep in mind you have to be stealthed behind the target to garrote, so you'll more often than not lose time on the target getting in position.

Also, you shouldn't be refreshing hfb that often... wait until there are < 3 sec left on its duration, and use a timer mod to track it. Doing it every time you envenom would be a huge energy waste.

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Q u o t e:


What other glyph would you get other than rupture and snd for mutilate build in pve?.

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...because pve mut specs dont get vigor?

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Q u o t e:

I just like using mutilate to get the cp to smooth out my cycle sooner.

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Try birth-control, I hear you get lighter periods too

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Q u o t e:

The target will frequently be poisoned, but the benefit still remains even if it isn't. Also keep in mind you have to be stealthed behind the target to garrote, so you'll more often than not lose time on the target getting in position.

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You should be behind the target anyways, and if you aren't in stealth, there is no argument, moron.

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Q u o t e:

Also, you shouldn't be refreshing hfb that often... wait until there are < 3 sec left on its duration, and use a timer mod to track it. Doing it every time you envenom would be a huge energy waste.

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Every T W O envenoms, which like I said, you should be using envenom once every ~14 seconds. Means you would be, get this, renewing HFB at 28 SECONDS (2 seconds before it drops)

PS: You are a dipshit

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Q u o t e:


What other glyph would you get other than rupture and snd for mutilate build in pve?
Crit mutilate without a poisoned boss will get you terrible mutilate damage.
With the rotation I gave, you have approximately 8-9~ seconds of SnD left (the 1 cp from the beginning) after you put up rupture. Also, rupture gets up on the boss quicker, which will lead to more dps.

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I keep eviscerate up since I'll use that in pvp and grinding and the 3rd assn glyph is basically useless.

As for that opening sequence, I did the math, and you only have about 7 seconds left on snd after hitting rupture.

garrote > snd > mutilate > rupture > mutilate > envenom
it takes 230 energy to perform, and 13 seconds.

you have 35 energy after hitting snd, so you have to wait 2.5 seconds before you can mutilate, then another 2.5 before you can rupture, then 3.5 before you can mutilate, and 3.5 until you can envenom.

Lets say you shave 2 seconds off of that from focused attacks procs, that's a very small window you have to refresh, and you'll only be able to pull that sequence off 50% of the time due to ruthlessness procs. Snd will drop if you have to add another mutilate in there before envenom.

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Q u o t e:

Try birth-control, I hear you get lighter periods too

You should be behind the target anyways, and if you aren't in stealth, there is no argument, moron.



Every T W O envenoms, which like I said, you should be using envenom once every ~14 seconds. Means you would be, get this, renewing HFB at 28 SECONDS (2 seconds before it drops)

PS: You are a dipshit

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You haven't even raided at all, so I'm not surprised you wouldn't know how infrequently you can start a fight stealthed behind the boss. Yes you can sprint up to them, but you'll still lose a second or so getting on target compared to breaking stealth early and just mutilating.

Resorting to name calling clearly supports your logic, especially when you've admitted yourself how little knowledge and experience you have.

My mistake for missing the every 2 envenoms part... that would work better, but still off, since you don't always envenom every 14 seconds, sometimes more, sometimes less.