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Q u o t e:
The idea that a team-support character being able to outlast and kill a purely offensively character in a situation where both are lacking team support is a bit absurd.

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You're right. It is absurd. I think that nearly everyone would agree with you. But that's not what most of the people here are saying. This is what debaters, philosophy professors, and other interesting people call a "Straw Man Fallacy": ignoring your opponents' real position and replacing it with one that is much easier to refute. Here's the Wikipedia entry if you want to learn more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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Q u o t e:
I don't know why you think druids were good "single target healers" We weren't, though we are better now. What we were and are still good at is healing two people, which is precisely why we were very strong in 2v2 and to a lesser degree in 3v3.

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Our mobility made us strong and the fact that we were very good healing 2-3 targets. Not so good at dealing with a group of 5. That's where priests came in. But you are more correct, which is why we excelled at 2v2 and 3v3. However, if you looked at the numbers you would see a drop from 2v2 to 3v3 and then a significant drop in 5v5. The problem was that most of the game was designed around 5v5 encounters and the results in 2v2 and 3v3 were considered equally to 5v5. This was another blunder by Blizzard with their statical analysis.

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Q u o t e:
I am also confused about your idea that resto druids were imbalanced because of damage. Druids were not doing significant damage in arena or in any pvp context.

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I was not talking about Resto druids which was yet another mistake made by Blizzard. Most of the druids in the arena weren’t resto they were Dream? Spec’ed. The way the Druid trees put some of the best Balance talents and the best Resto talents towards the bottom of the tree. Unfortunately, Resto's got blamed.

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Q u o t e:
The problem with druids was that lifebloom healed for too much and was far too efficient, allowing them to out-last nearly anything.

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And while you were doing that, you were pretty locked up. I was full Resto and when I was being attacked, I could not attack. I could stand there and take the hits, but if I even considered damaging the target I would blow my mana pool and die. Melee classes have in a sense infinite mana. Why is it not acceptable for a healer to have infinite mana to counter them if the healer can’t do damage while being attacked? Again we get to the statement, If I can’t kill you, you shouldn’t be able to kill me.

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Q u o t e:
This has been fixed by nerfing the spell's healing coefficient (it now heals for 40% more than in tbc, while other healing spells are up by 70% or so) and by reducing its efficiency to that of other spells.

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When it comes to the term “fixed” in an MMO I have begun to think of that term the same was as I think of it when it comes to a dog. The term “fixed” is a euphemism and people enjoy the “fix” the same way the dog does.

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Q u o t e:
Resto druid damage right now is pathetic, and it is close to impossible for us to kill any competent dps of any class.

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Yes, I agree Resto’s are not, nor have they ever been the problem.

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Q u o t e:

The idea that a team-support character being able to outlast and kill a purely offensively character in a situation where both are lacking team support is a bit absurd.

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Actually what's absurd is thinking that when you have a 2v2 dueling system you can have team-support characters.

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Q u o t e:


This is an ignorant statement. Learn to think. When you evaluate the health of a class you don't look at a single point of the graph. Unfortunately, idiots like you did and came up to the WRONG conclusion and got all healers nerfed. Druids had one small imbalance. That was their damage/survivability ratio was slightly off. They did more damage than a healing class should. The other problem was that 2v2 is incompatible with the original design of WoW. Read this carefully.

IN A SYSTEM DESIGNED AROUND 5v5 ENCOUNTERS A SINGLE TARGET HEALER IS GOING TO PERFORM EXCEPTIONALY WELL WHEN PUT IN A 2V2 SITUATION.

This was the Druid role. Single target healing. Not multi target healing but single target healing and when you add mobility to it, that makes the class even stronger. This isn't a fundamental flaw with Druids, it's a fundamental problem with the 2v2 design. Unfortunately, too many people want to get involved in a class war rather than actually come up with solutions. All healers got screwed because a few fools like yourself failed to recognize the real problem and decided to join the mindless mob and blame the easiest target available. Unfortunately, you picked the wrong one and shot yourself in the foot in the process.

As for "Should a healer be unkillable?" Absolutely! If a healer cannot kill another target and the game degrades to 1v1 duels, which it does, then a stalemate is NOT a win. It might be frustrating but it's NOT, I repeat for those of you who are a bit slow NOT A WIN. However, making healers killable yet not giving them the tools to kill their target is a IWIN button which not only is unfair, but destroys the integrity of the game.

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You call me ignorant and spew drivel like this?
Resto druids were OP for a few reasons and none of them were being able to put out more damage then other healers. The main problems were lifebloom and to a lesser extent cyclone

Their was like 90 druids on the top 100 2s teams and breaking 1700 and at bad times 1600 meant playing a keyboard turning druid that could keep 1400 on another toon. Anyone who isnt and idiot knew that Resto druids were fkn ridicuouls in s3 and s4

And last of all healers dont need the ablitiy to kill people at all thats why you bring a dps along... unless you plan on running double healer....

I asked a few times resto druids should be nerfed just quitely and Im sorry to tell you you are wrong again on people like me getting healers nerfed. The people that got healing as a whole nerfed were the terribads in the 1300s screaming on the pvp forums every 2nd day how resilliance ruined the game and how much fun it was back in the day 2 shotting people and how great pre tbc was

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Q u o t e:


You're right. It is absurd. I think that nearly everyone would agree with you. But that's not what most of the people here are saying. This is what debaters, philosophy professors, and other interesting people call a "Straw Man Fallacy": ignoring your opponents' real position and replacing it with one that is much easier to refute. Here's the Wikipedia entry if you want to learn more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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I don't agree. I don't see why it's any more absurd that a healer should win most 1v1s than that DPS should win most 1v1s.

I'd go so far as to say that it's difficult to see why you would want a support character who offers less in support strength than is made up for in lack of offensive power. It's not like healers heal other players spectacularly better than they heal themselves. In most cases healers have equal or better ability to self-heal than they have to heal others, and DPS classes generally have superior utility options to healers.

Given all that, why shouldn't healers win 1v1?

edit: unless of course you think that healers should be unviable to the point that it's impossible to heal through straight damage with no silences, CCs, interrupts, etc.

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Q u o t e:
I honestly think your taking his statement way out of context. He was simply stating that a dps team focusing on the healer first should be a viable option. This has not always been the case.

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strat⋅e⋅gy
–noun, plural -gies.
3. skillful use of a stratagem: The salesperson's strategy was to seem always to agree with the customer.
4. a plan, method, or series of maneuvers or stratagems for obtaining a specific goal or result: a strategy for getting ahead in the world.

(First 2 definitions focused on large-scale military strategy and while they also imply skill and coordination of resources, are largely irrelevant to any discussion of small-scale conflict like arena.)

Focusing the healer as a viable strategy implies coordination of cc and interrupts to ensure that their teammates cannot peel or assist, and their ability to heal themselves is minimized or eliminated when you're bursting them down.

A skillless zerg of 2 people keyboard turning and clicking their dps moves should not be an autowin.

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Q u o t e:
Resto druids were OP for a few reasons and none of them were being able to put out more damage then other healers. The main problems were lifebloom and to a lesser extent cyclone

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They were survivable. A survivable class should survive. That's balance. When you degrade a system to 1v1 duels, which is what 2v2 does, then you have to play by a different set of balance rules. I love how everyone keeps trying to blame druids but no one wants to address the 2v2 issue. That my friend is the problem, one you're trying to avoid because you don't like the answer. Druids were a symptom not the cause.

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Q u o t e:
And last of all healers dont need the ablitiy to kill people at all thats why you bring a dps along... unless you plan on running double healer....

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And what result would you expect with a double healer eh? And what result would you expect if the other team brought a double healer. Mathmatics say that should be a stalemate. Players will whine that they don't like stalemates and a healer/healer team should be just as viable as a healer/dps. Where do you draw the line on balance? How far do you go to prevent stalemates? An is there ever a case where an IWIN button is more desirable than a stalemate? Thousands of years of History says no, but the WoW developers seem to think yes.

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Q u o t e:
I asked a few times resto druids should be nerfed just quitely and Im sorry to tell you you are wrong again on people like me getting healers nerfed. The people that got healing as a whole nerfed were the terribads in the 1300s screaming on the pvp forums every 2nd day how resilliance ruined the game and how much fun it was back in the day 2 shotting people and how great pre tbc was

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Anytime a class gets nerfed anothers strength become more obvious. Ghostcrawler called it a three legged stool and they wanted to fix the stool by chopping off a leg. Unfortunately, they always take off too much and they try to compensate by cutting another leg. Eventually the stool is gone. Nerfs always create a cycle that will come back to haunt you. I’ve seen it in every MMO I’ve played and WoW is no different. Once the nerfing starts it never stops.

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Q u o t e:

I don't agree. I don't see why it's any more absurd that a healer should win most 1v1s than that DPS should win most 1v1s.

I'd go so far as to say that it's difficult to see why you would want a support character who offers less in support strength than is made up for in lack of offensive power. It's not like healers heal other players spectacularly better than they heal themselves. In most cases healers have equal or better ability to self-heal than they have to heal others, and DPS classes generally have superior utility options to healers.

Given all that, why shouldn't healers win 1v1?

edit: unless of course you think that healers should be unviable to the point that it's impossible to heal through straight damage with no silences, CCs, interrupts, etc.

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That's a good point. I tend to get so wrapped up in my own PvP approach (which is almost all healing and no damage) that I forget other people don't play the same way I do.

Given the nature of the post I was quoting (quick, dismissive, and vaguely patronizing) I was assuming that the poster was part of the " healers should be unviable to the point that it's impossible to heal through straight damage with no silences, CCs, interrupts, etc." camp.

Arguing about what was is not going to fix what is.

Hell the only thing that can fix what is will probably undo the game entirely. DPS nerfs across the board won't be taken lightly.

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Q u o t e:
Arguing about what was is not going to fix what is.

Hell the only thing that can fix what is will probably undo the game entirely. DPS nerfs across the board won't be taken lightly.

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then buff healer survivability across the board(except paly)

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Q u o t e:

You call me ignorant and spew drivel like this?
Resto druids were OP for a few reasons and none of them were being able to put out more damage then other healers. The main problems were lifebloom and to a lesser extent cyclone

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Actually, druids were OP in late seasons because of the Dreamstate build that allowed them excellent burst dps while still being able to heal/support their teammates in low brackets. It's similar to the disc/shadow build some priests utilized, but with more sustained damage and longevity all around.

Druids were kings of survivability in S2, but were nerfed (4-piece movement speed bonus nerfed, Cyclone range, and probably some other things I'm missing). Druids dropped just as fast in S4 as every other healer, unless you were facing really specific comps (druids still destroyed warlock teams and were strong against a few other comps).

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Q u o t e:
Actually, druids were OP in late seasons because of the Dreamstate build that allowed them excellent burst dps while still being able to heal/support their teammates in low brackets. It's similar to the disc/shadow build some priests utilized, but with more sustained damage and longevity all around.

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Thank you I was trying to remember the name of the build. Dreamstate is what violated the "If I can't kill you, you shouldn't be able to kill me" rule. Not pure Resto builds. Resto got the bad rap. What they needed to do was to move some of the better Resto talents up the tree and make it a lot harder to get the best of both survivability and damage in Dreamstate.

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Q u o t e:


I think that healers are the core of the team and dps is the support. After all, living is a lot more important than killing mobs in order to collect purples.

Therefore, it is absurd that any dps be able to outlast and kill a healer. You should all die miserable deaths if you dare attack us, with no hope of winning.

Get off your high horse. ALL classes and ALL basic specs should have a fair, 50:50 shot at killing each other. This, and only this, can be the rational goal of PvP design.

Right now, Mr Warlock, it is absolutely impossible for you to die to a resto druid unless you are dumb beyond all comprehension. That is a problem that needs to be fixed. I SHOULD have a fair shot at killing you, which would entail two things: not being so succeptable to fear, and being able to dps through drain/lifetap (or having some talent/ability that nerfs Drain Life, which really shoudn't work so well against healers if you think about it).

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wow.

a) you can't really think that there should be no hope of winning when attacking a healer. a healer should die without any help with a dps that properly uses its abilities on it. should they go down in 2 globals? no. an ms effect shouldn't be required to kill a healer either. it should be much more difficult to do without one though.

b) the 50:50 win ratio is pure fantasy. it will never happen in a game like this. there will always be a spec of a class that significantly counters a spec of another class. if you don't like this i'd have to suggest you switch over to an FPS.

healers are support classes. they should rely on help from others to be able to kill people. they need to be hardy enough to do so though. i really think a lot of you believe that healers should be able to tank 3 or more dps effectively. 2 dps using their abilities properly should take down a healer with no support in a reasonable amount of time. if it doesn't work like this you get into situations like GC was talking about where damage dealers don't feel effective and start asking for stupid stuff.

survivability is definitely an issue. we're only 3 weeks into the season and blizz is gonna wait just a little while longer to see how stuff pans out before they make any significant changes though. the sky isn't falling.

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Q u o t e:


wow.

a) you can't really think that there should be no hope of winning when attacking a healer. a healer should die without any help with a dps that properly uses its abilities on it. should they go down in 2 globals? no. an ms effect shouldn't be required to kill a healer either. it should be much more difficult to do without one though.

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Where's the healer's skill come into this?

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Q u o t e:

Where's the healer's skill come into this?

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i go under the assumption of equal gear/skill. people of less skill aren't necessarily going to use all of their abilities effectively. this goes for both sides.

against an equally geared/skilled dps opponent a healer should die without support from teammates. it should take a while though. no one is going to say that a lot of fights aren't happening too fast when a dps class gets a smile from the RNG. it still isn't quite as bad as everyone makes it out or there wouldn't be any decently rated healers that aren't paladins.

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Q u o t e:


i go under the assumption of equal gear/skill. people of less skill aren't necessarily going to use all of their abilities effectively. this goes for both sides.

against an equally geared/skilled dps opponent a healer should die without support from teammates. it should take a while though. no one is going to say that a lot of fights aren't happening too fast when a dps class gets a smile from the RNG. it still isn't quite as bad as everyone makes it out or there wouldn't be any decently rated healers that aren't paladins.

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We've established that healers heal themselves about as well as they heal other people, and often better. If a healer can't even counter a single DPSer, why bring a healer at all? You could just bring another DPS instead.

You could say, well, if you heal through your entire health bar then you've successfully countered one player's worth of DPS and it was worthwhile bringing you - your partner could have killed both of the enemy players by now. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily hold, because healers typically have far weaker defensive tools than DPS classes, healing aside. A priest is going to take a lot more damage than a rogue, say, because rogues have lots of cool freewin buttons that let them avoid damage.

On a tangent, going back to your earlier statement, the reason I questioned it specifically is I see it brought up a lot. "If the DPSer uses all their skills well, they should get the healer." I never see the healer's skill mentioned, or how if the healer uses their skills really well the DPSer shouldn't be able to kill them. It's always the DPS player. I think that's pretty interesting and probably more than a little telling.

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Q u o t e:


The worst part about all this is they'll probably nerf paladins so all the healers have a equal chance of dieing within 5 secs of a ambush.

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it does seem how they treat holy paladins.
BTW, where is the promised holy pally fix GC? its 2009.

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Q u o t e:


You think it's fair that no matter how many people gang up on you that you should be able to just heal through the damage with no help from your team? That doesn't seem right.

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You say "no matter how many," but we are complaining because it's happening with just two people, sometimes even one.