World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hunter

Huggerz

< apples >

Tichondrius

141. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 01:58:18 PM PST

At the very least, give us an explanation as to why you decided to put aspects back on the GCD rather than, "OH... it doesn't seem like a big imposition." Because this honestly makes you all sound clueless!

[ Post edited by Huggerz ]

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."

Psi

Mug'thol

142. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 02:03:04 PM PST

Q u o t e:

this is kinda funny considering your experience also lol

nice gear brew

I'm not entirely sure what you find funny about it.
He's 100% right that hunters have some of the worst scaling in the game.

Psi

Mug'thol

144. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 02:06:08 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Hunters are just mad cause now they have to work to get a kill in pvp not just rely on big red pet

I know it's really hard for you to figure out, but if you kill the pet a bm hunter is beyond gimped.

Miniiflii

< Illyria >

Windrunner

145. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 02:35:41 PM PST

Please keep aspects OFF the GCD. Its the only thing about this class that makes it play very fluidly.

[ Post edited by Miniiflii ]

Lickerzz

< apples >

Tichondrius

146. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 02:39:19 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Please keep aspects OFF the GCD. Its the only thing about this class that makes it play very fluidly.

bumping this, hunters have enough globals to manage in pvp situations, putting aspects back on the global is a big issue that shouldn't have been stealth nerfed..

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

147. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 03:55:50 PM PST

Whoa. Hunters turn all big and red like the kitty. Time for a tranq shot.

We talked about it, and Aspects on the GCD is not that big an issue for us. We don't think it's a huge balance problem either way. We can understand though why it feels like a nerf to not have the GCD now and to get it back in 3.0.8. So we can keep Aspects off the GCD. No harm done. (They will still have the 1 sec shared cooldown.)

The argument of why you can't just do too much damage until Ulduar is a silly one. Hunters are doing too much damage. Yes, some other specs are also doing too much damage, but we are reigning those in too.

Remember, our tests are not done with the PTR data. Our builds are more recent than that and have numbers, bug-fixes and data you haven't seen. We try and give you a heads up to major changes when we can, but we can't give you an accurate picture of the data with just words.

We understand the concern that Survival's damage is too high relative to other hunters. That may be the case on the PTR but it isn't the case for us. We have some different numbers for Explosive Shot than the PTR has. We understand the concerns about T.N.T.

I would suggest in general to chill. If you yell and scream and use bad words you're just going to get banned and then nobody can see your feedback. If you are too emotional to post, then just don't do it. We get to make the rules around our forums and the rules are that you have to be civilized. You can disagree with us, and many players do, but when you cross the line and say things that you wouldn't say to your parents, friends or co-workers then you are not behaving civilly. It's ridiculous that I have to remind people of that, but such is the Internet. Be grownups.

EDIT: LNL not TNT. :)

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

Apocalypsi

< makaveli >

Shadowsong

148. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 03:59:51 PM PST

your numbers are different because you arent trap dancing...

easy fix for people trap dancing- up the rate that itll proc from stings so that sniper training will be actually useful to spec into for surv.

i cant possibly see myself having fun trap dancing, but if its the highest dps output you better believe most hardcore guilded hunters will do it

edit: also, when are you going to revert rapid fire to its BC days and take that off gcd? wasting 1.5-2 seconds of either bw or RF is just a flawed idea. they are cooldowns for a reason

[ Post edited by Apocalypsi ]

"I'm Awesome"
"You're sick." "I'm not sick, im just blowing excess Awesome out my nose."
"You know what i do when I'm sad? I stop being sad, and be AWESOME."
-Barney Stinson

Gearhard

< Legions >

Lightbringer

149. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 04:03:31 PM PST

Q u o t e:

We understand the concern that Survival's damage is too high relative to other hunters. That may be the case on the PTR but it isn't the case for us. We have some different numbers for Explosive Shot than the PTR has. We understand the concerns about T.N.T.

Can I ask Ghost why the Blizz developers are so focused on Explosive Shot and not the rest of the Surv tree? We are still missing our 41 point talent which you guys promised would be fixed after Lich King release and we are still loaded down with to many trap type talents. It seems whenever you guys mess with ES, things either go over board or end up doing to little damage. Have you guys ever thought of actually trying to fix the tree itself and some of the other talents in the tree other then ES?

ES was a big issue on the Beta and still is now it seems. But every time you guys seem to fool with it, our damage either goes through the roof or is way under par (see the fact there are no raiding Surv Hunters). Wouldn't it be easier to sort of set the AP scaling rate of ES in stone and then tweak the other talents around it that way you guys have more to work with then just trying to tune a talent you guys seem to keep messing up? Just wanted to know really.

-Gear

Utilitarian

Blackwing Lair

150. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 04:11:42 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Whoa. Hunters turn all big and red like the kitty. Time for a tranq shot.

We talked about it, and Aspects on the GCD is not that big an issue for us. We don't think it's a huge balance problem either way. We can understand though why it feels like a nerf to not have the GCD now and to get it back in 3.0.8. So we can keep Aspects off the GCD. No harm done. (They will still have the 1 sec shared cooldown.)

The argument of why you can't just do too much damage until Ulduar is a silly one. Hunters are doing too much damage. Yes, some other specs are also doing too much damage, but we are reigning those in too.

Remember, our tests are not done with the PTR data. Our builds are more recent than that and have numbers, bug-fixes and data you haven't seen. We try and give you a heads up to major changes when we can, but we can't give you an accurate picture of the data with just words.

We understand the concern that Survival's damage is too high relative to other hunters. That may be the case on the PTR but it isn't the case for us. We have some different numbers for Explosive Shot than the PTR has. We understand the concerns about T.N.T.

I would suggest in general to chill. If you yell and scream and use bad words you're just going to get banned and then nobody can see your feedback. If you are too emotional to post, then just don't do it. We get to make the rules around our forums and the rules are that you have to be civilized. You can disagree with us, and many players do, but when you cross the line and say things that you wouldn't say to your parents, friends or co-workers then you are not behaving civilly. It's ridiculous that I have to remind people of that, but such is the Internet. Be grownups.

You know what concerns me the most about your post? The "surprise" factor. You have the information, but you're not sharing it. We think we see it, but we really don't. You want us to test it, but you don't really want us to test it. You basically just said you're doing it yourself, with your own numbers, and everything we think we're testing is really irrelevant.

What you really want is for us to just take your word for it that the numbers are right, that it will balance out, that everything will be fine, that you are right and we are wrong.

Except we've heard those false prophecies so many times that we can't even be bothered with believing them. I'm sure I'll get banned, and that's fine. But after hearing for 4 years that you're fixing hunters (for arenas), with no real improvements, your comments have become contrite insults. I'm sorry, but it makes me want to vomit. While I'm sure the developers are godlike control freaks who really do know every aspect of this game far better than anyone else, there are times when the people who play actually DO understand. It wouldn't kill you to actually pretend like you DON'T know more than they do - I have a feeling the hunter theorycrafters who have put a lot of time & effort into the class know quite a bit more than a good portion of your development team.

Psi

Mug'thol

151. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 04:16:19 PM PST

Q u o t e:

The argument of why you can't just do too much damage until Ulduar is a silly one. Hunters are doing too much damage. Yes, some other specs are also doing too much damage, but we are reigning those in too.

No offense, I'll believe it when I see it.
You thought dealing with hunters was bad at all?
Wait till you try to nerf Mages (and fury warriors).

Poindextrous

< Gods of Warcraft >

Perenolde

152. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 04:23:42 PM PST

Q u o t e:

You know what concerns me the most about your post? The "surprise" factor. You have the information, but you're not sharing it. We think we see it, but we really don't. You want us to test it, but you don't really want us to test it. You basically just said you're doing it yourself, with your own numbers, and everything we think we're testing is really irrelevant.

Pretty much. Why are we even asked to give feedback if, even on the PTR, we're using incorrect information? How can anyone's feedback, positive or negative, be valid if it's formulated on information that is both outdated and inaccurate? Logically, nobody in this forum can comment on anything constructively at all, because we don't have the inside "numbers" and builds. It really makes me wonder what the purpose of this forum and the PTR is, considering that we only have access to tainted data and therefore cannot come to a correct conclusion about anything.

Rocksalt

Greymane

153. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 04:26:03 PM PST

Q u o t e:

The argument of why you can't just do too much damage until Ulduar is a silly one. Hunters are doing too much damage.

Most every loaded Patchwerk kill I see is Rogues, then Mages, Hunters, Fury Warrior, Shaman or DK doing literally identical dps, followed by everyone else. Are they also doing too much damage, or is my Hunter getting "uppity" whenever he passes a fury warrior or mage on the meter?

Also, I'm trying not to be an ass, I like it that you respond to lots of threads for good or ill.

[ Post edited by Rocksalt ]

Syrene

< Knights of Arcadia >

Dark Iron

154. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 04:40:15 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Whoa. Hunters turn all big and red like the kitty. Time for a tranq shot.

We talked about it, and Aspects on the GCD is not that big an issue for us. We don't think it's a huge balance problem either way. We can understand though why it feels like a nerf to not have the GCD now and to get it back in 3.0.8. So we can keep Aspects off the GCD. No harm done. (They will still have the 1 sec shared cooldown.)

The argument of why you can't just do too much damage until Ulduar is a silly one. Hunters are doing too much damage. Yes, some other specs are also doing too much damage, but we are reigning those in too.

Remember, our tests are not done with the PTR data. Our builds are more recent than that and have numbers, bug-fixes and data you haven't seen. We try and give you a heads up to major changes when we can, but we can't give you an accurate picture of the data with just words.

We understand the concern that Survival's damage is too high relative to other hunters. That may be the case on the PTR but it isn't the case for us. We have some different numbers for Explosive Shot than the PTR has. We understand the concerns about T.N.T.

I would suggest in general to chill. If you yell and scream and use bad words you're just going to get banned and then nobody can see your feedback. If you are too emotional to post, then just don't do it. We get to make the rules around our forums and the rules are that you have to be civilized. You can disagree with us, and many players do, but when you cross the line and say things that you wouldn't say to your parents, friends or co-workers then you are not behaving civilly. It's ridiculous that I have to remind people of that, but such is the Internet. Be grownups.

If you did think it was a huge balance problem either way why change it in the first place? Clearly the hunters in this thread thought it was a big enough deal, in pvp at least, to comment strongly on it. Perhaps it would be useful to look at why there is a disconnect between what you think is a minor balance issue to what the players think is one.

I'll also echo some of the statements in previous posts by saying if that we are working off old data on the ptr how can we be expected to give any meaningful feedback? If we come to you saying "Skill X seems a little too strong." and you reply "well not with the more recent numbers we're running" what is the point of having a ptr at all? If your scaling is lower on ES on your internal test why bother giving us old numbers to test on the ptr when you already determined them too strong. Wouldn't our input be most helpful on the most recent data.

I'm not trying to be snippy about it but the feedback process seems flawed. At the end of the day your numbers are more recent and your numbers take precedent.

Kilara

< Undivided >

Draenor

155. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 05:12:13 PM PST

Q u o t e:
You can disagree with us, and many players do, but when you cross the line and say things that you wouldn't say to your parents, friends or co-workers then you are not behaving civilly. It's ridiculous that I have to remind people of that, but such is the Internet. Be grownups.

So, I can talk to you like I do my co-workers, mother, and family?

What I have to say next must be bleeped, so I won't say it.

Join us Hunters, we have cookies.
"TO THE GROUND BABY!"
- Jalil
<Dark Abyss>
Zul'jin

Delekii

< Cult of Sorbocles >

Kil'jaeden

156. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 05:24:56 PM PST

What a joke this is.

Why bother having the ptr at all if you don't use it?

Is the PTR there just to make people feel like they are having an input when in reality you don't give a stuff?

GC, recently you contradict yourself more often than you consolidate yourself. That's what comes from trying to be a politician rather than what you started off as, someone who bridges the gap between the community and the development team.

Currently hunters feel like putty, being remodeled more often than Michael Jackson's face. Work out what the frikken hell you want from this class, implement it, and leave it. How can you expect hunters to enjoy the time between now and Ulduar? First, you give them a glimpse of hope that they might be quite powerful for PvE, despite the fact that we still suck ARSE in PvP. Ok, we can live with that. But then, you nerf the #!*! out of hunters. Everyone saw it coming, but no-one expected the bat to be this large. Ok, we can deal with it. But then you let slip that hunter damage is going to be remodeled AGAIN in the next patch, meaning that all this work people are doing now, and all the work that hunters will be doing to re-tweak their damage post 3.08 is going to be obsolete yet again. What is the POINT?

Fix it now, don't fix it then. HUNTERS are not doing too much damage, BM HUNTERS are doing too much damage. Use CONSIDERED nerfs, then roll everything else into one big hunter patch and frikken LEAVE IT.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

157. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 05:29:12 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Pretty much. Why are we even asked to give feedback if, even on the PTR, we're using incorrect information? How can anyone's feedback, positive or negative, be valid if it's formulated on information that is both outdated and inaccurate? Logically, nobody in this forum can comment on anything constructively at all, because we don't have the inside "numbers" and builds. It really makes me wonder what the purpose of this forum and the PTR is, considering that we only have access to tainted data and therefore cannot come to a correct conclusion about anything.

We're not expecting the community to be our QA team. We have people who do that -- they are trained and experienced and they do a great job. What we want from you guys is feedback, and you don't need the most recent data to do that. While we like numbers and they can be useful, I am constantly cautioning the community not to put too much emphasis into their own theorycrafting and spreadsheets until you have the actual data. We realize the WoW community loves to number crunch. That's awesome and I don't want to discourage it. Remember, the way this used to work is you would just one day get a list of patch notes and everyone would be surprised. So even though you may not always have the most recent data, we're still trying to give you a lot more information on which to comment.

On the Aspects issue, we don't like taking things off of the GCD. There is a reason we have a GCD and it has everything to do with being a server-client based game. We tried to fix the problem with Aspects being difficult to manage by reducing the need to switch from a defensive aspect (Monkey) and an offensive aspect (Hawk). Enough people (and not just on this thread) said Viper would still be a problem, so we agreed in this case to take the Aspects off the GCD. This is a good example of feedback working.

Seraphism

Mannoroth

158. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 05:42:33 PM PST

/shrug
thanks for taking aspects back off gcd.

I think the main problem everyone has with current hunter nerfs is the disconnect between current numbers, live, ptr and any sort of theorycrafting which shows bm 50/21 hunters doing too much damage and other builds doing comparable damage to the other classes. But GC said "hunters are doing too much damage" which just doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.

A nerf 50/21 bm hunters, (of which i am currently one) is probably fair, but the dramatic nerf to steady shot just doesn't seem like it makes sense given the performance of other hunter specs.

That is I think the main concern at the moment. Most people don't mind the volley nerf, or the 50/21 nerf or even Bm pet nerf a bit, but nerfing steady shot will in addition to all that will really affect dps for all hunter builds not just the one build doing too much damage.

Krelkor

< Super Ninja Death Sq… >

Arygos

159. Re: Couple of Quick Questions for Ghost on Hu 01/06/2009 05:43:04 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Whoa. Hunters turn all big and red like the kitty. Time for a tranq shot.

Some of us aren't specced BM. :)

Q u o t e:
We talked about it, and Aspects on the GCD is not that big an issue for us. We don't think it's a huge balance problem either way. We can understand though why it feels like a nerf to not have the GCD now and to get it back in 3.0.8. So we can keep Aspects off the GCD. No harm done. (They will still have the 1 sec shared cooldown.)

Thank you.

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