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Q u o t e:
I didn't say it should be trivial to kill a healer. I purposefully didn't specify how many people it should take to kill a healer. I didn't say that we were happy with how easy it is to currently kill a healer. But if you are anticipating a point where you just laugh at warriors or shamans or other classes without brutal CC and drains, then you might be disappointed.

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I agree with you, GC, but it seems like you guys have backed yourself into a corner. If you look at the "1004 resilience" thread, the OP there is having some trouble, but it looks like a pretty reasonable challenge, and there's the key flaw. The same thing happened in BC, where you needed 400+ resilience to really be competitive. To me, it looks like you're relying on the "PvP stat" to even out the damage that classes need for PvE because you have to eat up item points in order to keep the gear separate. Resilience is anti-burst, but all that should really do is just narrow the window for the burst kill instead of framing that window.

I've had a couple ideas on how to do this with priests, disarm being my favorite so far, but the overall idea is that you can't design the game like you designed warriors at 60. Contrary to some claims, you do have a lot of different mechanics to choose from in this game, and I think you need to re-apply some of the less-used ones like Horror, disarm, (de)buff-break penalties, and attack speed reduction.

Edit: A useful general rule might be "as resilience increases, so does haste" so that white damage and spell speed (which I may be falsely likening to white damage) counteract some of the increased longevity. Just a thought.

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Q u o t e:


MC may be a bad example. But to say that healers have no CC is ludicrous.

edit: Honestly my last hope for my priest was for there to be a MC glyph that shortened cast time... maybe reducing duration.

That would have kept me interested. Vastly interested.

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hai2u

Wheres my CC?

That 27 CD second fear you're immune to most of the time / can trinket out of

or the hymn on the 6 min CD that shares a GCD with my fear?

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Q u o t e:
Yes, I said that. If you are disagreeing with that remark, then you are essentially saying "It shouldn't be a viable tactic to kill a healer."

If you aren't saying that, then all we're really quibbling over is a matter of degree.

I didn't say it should be trivial to kill a healer. I purposefully didn't specify how many people it should take to kill a healer. I didn't say that we were happy with how easy it is to currently kill a healer. But if you are anticipating a point where you just laugh at warriors or shamans or other classes without brutal CC and drains, then you might be disappointed.

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Do you realize that you are still expecting a whole archetype, one that this game can not function with out, to still sit on the edge of their seats and hang on your every word and promise that you are "fixing" us? To date since WotLK beta healers have been up in arms about survivability and our ability to perform in the game not in mortal fear of every single other player. We are not asking to dominate this game, we are not asking to be a mini raid encounter, we just want to be a contender and not have to suffer through months or a year of being fodder to be that contender.

Like a lot of priests on this game I absolutely loved pvp healing, hated arena but no matter, since wrath I have dueled every class out there and any time I even go near a rogue, warrior, pally, hunter, or DK I am dead in 3 to 4 seconds. I can hold my own against mages and have a 40% win rate on locks. Should I be able to beat all those other classes? No, and I am not asking to have that kind of power, what I want is for there to be the same caution in them when engaging me as I have just walking out of town and see one of those classes looking at me.

There has been literally hundreds of posts on how healing classes can get locked down, and hundreds more suggestions on how to l2play newb! Truth is there is no way to cast a 1.3 second spell while stunned/silenced, there is no way to cast an instant spell while under the same conditions and while you are in that condition you are burned down in a few hits from 15k health to nothing.

Long story short GC yes we are peeved, you are not forthcoming with anything remotely looking like a boon to us. All the posts we see are still about dps class fixes and still more nerfs to our mana regen. No eta on the long awaited over haul to the healing meta game that though I enjoy, as many have stated is clunky at best. And to top it all, the only response we see on any kind of regularity is " Wait until you are at X junction and you will see a difference." Yet we have reached how many "X" junctions and not only been let down but have actually seen our archetype get a set back that we still get the sit and wait response for?

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Q u o t e:
How about a place where non pally healers can be competitive? How about a place where you dont need 10 seconds of full immunity to heal? instead of just a gibfest?

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This. The %*!#ty thing is that Blizzard is going to wait until everybody is running around with 900 resilience to admit that resilience won't fix things and THEN take six to eight months to come up with a bad solution.

I saw this coming the second talents went live before wotlk. I'm starting to think this is some bull%*!# tactic by Blizzard to keep us playing. I guarantee there are people sitting around calculating the exact amount of time players are willing to keep paying their monthly bill before seing results.

I honest to God can't wait for Blizzard's bubble to pop. It will happen. History is proof of that. I just wish I knew exactly when so I could have a bucket of popcorn ready.

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Q u o t e:
Yes, I said that. If you are disagreeing with that remark, then you are essentially saying "It shouldn't be a viable tactic to kill a healer."

If you aren't saying that, then all we're really quibbling over is a matter of degree.

I didn't say it should be trivial to kill a healer. I purposefully didn't specify how many people it should take to kill a healer. I didn't say that we were happy with how easy it is to currently kill a healer. But if you are anticipating a point where you just laugh at warriors or shamans or other classes without brutal CC and drains, then you might be disappointed.

Also this:

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If the ONLY THING I am doing is trying to keep myself alive at the expense of a) healing my partner b) doing ANY damage what-so-ever and c) not providing any CC or control what-so-ever... I think its not terribly unreasonable to want to survive 1v1 against a DPS class.

Currently vs DKs, rogues, and Ret paladins, that's simply not the case.

The point is especially annoying when you factor in that none of those three DPS classes run out of resources (mana) to DPS with.

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Q u o t e:


You're not making things better.

All you're saying is, stand aside healers. Arena is no longer about keeping people alive, it's about killing them. Oh, and it's your fault you let druids do what they did in season 4. We all told you it was a problem and you just let them go on anyway.

Can you just hurry up with dual specs already. Healers are getting sick of this game.

ps. You're a towel.

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That's not what I'm seeing. I have a resto druid friend, and a holy pally friend, and they both love healing now that they have resilience. Maybe the fact that Savage is a blue set, and looks unattractive, has turned people off from it, but resilience still works, and works well.

Season 5 is just like Season 1. People didn't want to give up their leet PVE epics for pvp gear because "their damage would go down." The rate at which you lose DPS, and which you gain survivability are not the same, and healers lose marginal healing stats for huge increases in survivability.

Basing arena off 2 weeks of people blowing up in pve gear is not smart. Healers, in resilience gear survive quite well. There's just less classes that are a complete joke in pvp, and more to learn/deal with.

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Q u o t e:
Yes, I said that. If you are disagreeing with that remark, then you are essentially saying "It shouldn't be a viable tactic to kill a healer."

If you aren't saying that, then all we're really quibbling over is a matter of degree.

I didn't say it should be trivial to kill a healer. I purposefully didn't specify how many people it should take to kill a healer. I didn't say that we were happy with how easy it is to currently kill a healer. But if you are anticipating a point where you just laugh at warriors or shamans or other classes without brutal CC and drains, then you might be disappointed.

Also this:

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the only thing your quote ever applied to was druids in 2v2, and none of that had anything to do with the players themselves. you let druids roll their faces on lifebloom for 4 seasons and be virtually un-cc-able rocketing even blue geared ones to 1800-2k. any priest, shaman, or pally would strait up disagree with who you quoted.

priests were able to last the duration of their mana bar, which in most cases didnt last long if their was an ms. shamans were in much the same situation. paladins were never in any real shape to heal in 2s, especially late in the season due to how easily they were controlled.

now the only real viable healer in 2s is a paladin and it's a stretch to imply it's anything other than bubble making it this way.

however, i think the overwhelming majority of the people concerned with this topic would very much like you to respond to this:

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Q u o t e:
The most solid argument or point to be made on this topic regarding dps vs healing in group play is one that has already been mentioned several times.

In order to even consider justifying the existence of a pure healing spec player in a 2v2 situation (3v3 or 5v5 includes too many variables to calculate for this purpose), the healing class MUST BE CAPABLE OF sustaining both themselves and their teammate through the pure damage output of 2 opponents for a substantial amount of time. Otherwise it would make more sense and provide a better chance of winning to build teams around Double dps/cc/damage mitigation than it would be to build a team around 1 dps 1 healer.

No matter what way you look at the above statement. Allowing 1 dps class to dispatch a healer who buids their talent spec/ itemization and playstyle around survivability/healing renders the above statement false. Totally excluding any reason to build a 2v2 or most likely even 3v3 team that includes a pure healing spec'd player.

The entire point of including a healing spec'd player in an arena team is to provide longevity and resilience to said team. If the Healing player is unable to effectively protect themselves with a rather high % against 1 equally matched dps and utterly incapable of defending themselves against 2 equally matched dps then their entire presence is pointless and the strategy is a failure.

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for a healer's role to be justified, this needs to be true to an extent. at the very least a competent and geared healer needs to be able to survive against a competent and geared dps ESPECIALLY if they lack stuns/cc/ms/interrupts or just don't use them well enough. otherwise... what's the point? if you intend for one shaman or one warrior (as you said) to beat us down with pure dps, then just say it. in essence, it will be admitting our relative uselessness, but at least we'll get a strait answer.

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Q u o t e:


You're not making things better.

All you're saying is, stand aside healers. Arena is no longer about keeping people alive, it's about killing them. Oh, and it's your fault you let druids do what they did in season 4. We all told you it was a problem and you just let them go on anyway.

Can you just hurry up with dual specs already. Healers are getting sick of this game.

ps. You're a towel.

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No, what he's saying is:

Healers, you're no longer immortal.



Does no one else really see a problem with a character built around supporting his team being able to handle multiple opponents on his own as well?

Should i link one of the hundreds of double dps videos from S2-4 where healers (including resto druids) are obliterated? Where completely mediocre rogues would blind to force a trinket then cs-kidney (insert secondary class nukes here) and the healer would have no chance?

Healers were perfectly viable targets if you knew what you were doing.

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Q u o t e:


No, what he's saying is:

Healers, you're no longer immortal.



Does no one else really see a problem with a character built around supporting his team being able to handle multiple opponents on his own as well?

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if we're still talking about 2s, then this is irrelevent. all 2k+ double dps teams pre-wrath knew how to handle a healer. time your cc, your silences and your interrupts and focus your burst while the healer was controlled. they were never immortal. druids were close, but that was a druid mechanic problem, not a healer mechanic problem.

wonder why pallies were the preferred healer in 5s? because NOBODY could handle a 4 person zerg. a pally would be able to bubble, and possibly bop the burst target in a bad situation. nobody is wanting invincibility, we are only asking for equality. if a healer isn't expected to at least handle 1 dps to some extent and possibly handle 2 until his partner can (within reasonable limits) peel, what the hell is the point of having a healer? you're essentially a road block to the inevitable 2v1 that will take place once the "warrior or shaman" beats you down with dps alone and no interrupts.

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Q u o t e:


No, what he's saying is:

Healers, you're no longer immortal.



Does no one else really see a problem with a character built around supporting his team being able to handle multiple opponents on his own as well?

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We've never been immortal. However, just like anyone, if left alone, we are/were a force to be reconed with. We have typically been able to live through focus fire of sometimes 2-3 people at a time, and I do agree that might have been OP. Just realize that a) thats without lockdown of any sort, good lockdown classes are killing healers 1v1 without problems, and b) healing is ALL WE DO. We have very little DPS capability.

The second point needs to be kept in mind when people are QQing about not being able to kill healers. Did we kill you? Hardly. All we did was survive your onslaught of popped cooldowns. Your still in the game, just like we are.

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Q u o t e:


I think whatever quote keeps getting referenced here is misquoted or mis-stated or something. All I have ever said was that damage will be lower when everyone is at full resilience. Will damage be low enough then? I have never answered that because I think the jury is out. I understand many players think damage will still be too high. We certainly take their opinions (and numbers) into account when we discuss it.

I'm sorry if you hate your priest (I think you were a priest). We don't.

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But GC, how do we get to full resil when everything requires a rating and we lose our matches?

It's a brick wall.

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Q u o t e:
Yes, I said that. If you are disagreeing with that remark, then you are essentially saying "It shouldn't be a viable tactic to kill a healer."

If you aren't saying that, then all we're really quibbling over is a matter of degree.

I didn't say it should be trivial to kill a healer. I purposefully didn't specify how many people it should take to kill a healer. I didn't say that we were happy with how easy it is to currently kill a healer. But if you are anticipating a point where you just laugh at warriors or shamans or other classes without brutal CC and drains, then you might be disappointed.

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The part that is getting people all up in arms is the "in the absence of crowd control, silences or whatever" -- from a healer's point of view, everyone has a button they can hit to disrupt healing. They should need to hit that button to take a healer out, they should not expect raw DPS to beat raw HPS.

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Q u o t e:


We do not balance 1v1 PvP. We make virtually no attempt to insure that all specs are viable at dueling. It's a fun distraction at best, perhaps a way to test our your abilities against a specific class.

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I don't think we're seeking boons, we're just saying that it doesn't seem fair that, as healers, we are guaranteed to die with 1 or 2 dps on me, let alone more. (speaking mostly for priests/shammies here since pallies have an easier time).

Should Arena teams ever bring healers? If healers are guaranteed to die in an Arena, wouldn't it make more sense to bring another DPS intead of a healer, since they will at least be able to get a few hits off?

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Q u o t e:


The part that is getting people all up in arms is the "in the absence of crowd control, silences or whatever" -- from a healer's point of view, everyone has a button they can hit to disrupt healing. They should need to hit that button to take a healer out, they should not expect raw DPS to beat raw HPS.

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Exactly. We AREN'T operating in the absence of crowd control, silences etc. There are too many of them right now, and so the burst COMBINED with that control means we are guaranteed to die 1v1 if we're up against the FOTM classes.

But this is ok, because they don't balance 1v1.

GC is saying healers don't belong in Arena. They want it to be instagib deathmatches.

It's a sad day for us pvp healers when the vision for our role is that we are free kills.

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Q u o t e:
GC is saying healers don't belong in Arena. They want it to be instagib deathmatches.

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GC is not saying this. He's saying S4 had too much druid survivability.