World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> GC: Why?

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Alleria

80. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 01:07:32 PM PST

rogues are fgts, nothing more.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

81. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 01:08:03 PM PST

Q u o t e:
It's because GC disproportionately posts on bad threads because he doesn't want to ruin good ones.

There is some truth to this. I greatly appreciate the good threads, but sometimes even popping in to say so can turn it into a bad thread. Blue posts tend to attract flies (I know *that* one will get quoted). Players also sometimes get frustrated if I just say "Good post" without going line by line through all of their points. It's an understandable position, but a difficult expectation for me to meet.

I wish players wouldn't GC-ify every title, but I'd rather spend my time reading good posts than trying to enforce that. You have to pick your battles.

I do think it's pretty lame when players dismiss someone's PvP concerns because a class is good in PvE or vice versa. While we have to balance both aspects of the game, not every player cares equally about both, nor is every topic about both.

Most intelligent, honest players would probably agree that rogues are a little too good in PvP and weaker than the top dps dealers on raids -- but since many of those top dealers are getting nerfed, hopefully rogues will be in a very good place after 3.0.8. But all of that is for one spec of rogue. We feel that hunters will have 3 viable trees in 3.0.8 and we'd love to get rogues into that same place. It's just harder for rogues.

One idea I see a lot is to give a little bit more armor pen to deep Combat and I think there are a lot of things we can do to deep Subt. But those changes all need to be deep, or rogues will just skim off the top of any tree to maximize their dps. Making haste, and perhaps armor pen too, a little more beneficial to melee will also bring them up, though that may mean nerfing some other classes. These aren't announcements, just the kind of things I see on the forums.

Ladery

< Common Blood >

Kilrogg

83. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 01:21:13 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I do think it's pretty lame when players dismiss someone's PvP concerns because a class is good in PvE or vice versa. While we have to balance both aspects of the game, not every player cares equally about both, nor is every topic about both.

Rogues have been accusing you of dismissing their pve problems because their already to good in pvp
Warriors have been accusing you of dismissing their pvp concerns because their to good in pve.

While blizz chose to buff fury warriors damage with this next patch is mind boggling at best and I am honestly amazed blizzard is not getting heavily flamed for it.

Ladery 73 Death knight <Main>
Skrump 80 warrior <retired>
Silentrage 70 Druid
EliteRage 63 Rogue

Cilis

< Meliora >

Maelstrom

85. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 01:25:27 PM PST

Ghostcrawler,

You'd mentioned before in another thread you want rogue group buffs to be desirable and welcome, My question is what group buff do we have exactly, when you use the term I think of things like shouts, blessings, aura, presences and so on.

As far as I'm aware our only buff is TotT and its single target, not party wide.

Was this just a case of poor wording, or general terms, or did you and the team play a bit with the idea of a rogue group buff?

Naturally I'd guess... TotT might be changed to continue giving threat to a friendly raid/party member but instead of buffing their damage, it buffs the rogue's party damage/healing by 15%.

Ryuuji

< Ducktape >

Thrall

86. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 01:30:41 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I was in a pug with the OP once and he ditched before the last boss cause his guild was going to Archavon

10man

Only time I've ever ditched a group was when we'd wiped more then 3 times on the same boss. I was still being inducted into my guild at the time and needed 8 raids under my belt to be eligible for loot, this is no longer the case.

Cilis

< Meliora >

Maelstrom

87. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 01:58:21 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Only time I've ever ditched a group was when we'd wiped more then 3 times on the same boss. I was still being inducted into my guild at the time and needed 8 raids under my belt to be eligible for loot, this is no longer the case.

No idea what this has to do with the thread.

Cupcakes!

Ameena

< Gwen Stefani >

Blackhand

88. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 02:08:26 PM PST

So it's not okay for rogues to skim the top of every tree and you put Relentless Strikes in Subtlety?

What the hell.

Cilis

< Meliora >

Maelstrom

89. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 02:13:50 PM PST

Q u o t e:
So it's not okay for rogues to skim the top of every tree and you put Relentless Strikes in Subtlety?

What the hell.

Hehe. I think they mean by putting the talents DEEP they don't have to fear things like prep hybrid rogues having their PvE dps boosts effect PvP.

Basically, its top-shelfing PvE talents to put them out of reach of our prep builds. I think its a smart move to be honest, since I don't feel HfB will be changed to have any PvP viability anyhow.

Bergtau

< Ouroboros >

Blade's Edge

90. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 02:15:30 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Why oh why GC, Why are Rogues the only class with -2- changes, when we are one of the classes that needs them the most?(Behind Death Knights, and I realize that balancing a new class might take priority)
The 2 changes may have been buffs, but I don't believe that removing the FoK Cooldown will increase my Raid Boss DPS. Anyway, I was just wondering why there has been no mention of things that MIGHT happen to the Rogue class. No input on your part on what you think should be changed, or suggestions on what fixes may buff our PVE DPS. A simple question really, I just hope you respond.

Warlocks only have 2 changes that affect how an ability functions in 3.0.8

1 - Demonic Circle: Teleport removing snares.
2 - Demon Armor getting 120% more armor.

You could say that Demonic Circle: Teleport showing whether or not you're in range is also a change, but it is not a functionality change, just a display change.

The rest are bug fixes.

Oh, also Summoning Stones I guess.

[ Post edited by Bergtau ]

Metamorphosis - The New Firestone

Graghlan

< Righteous Dawn >

Azgalor

91. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 02:16:45 PM PST

It really is a sad thing watching rogues get kicked from raids and guilds because their damage is too low in a raid. These raids require the perfect raid composition, and the best min maxing possible and rogues just don't cut it in this current raiding environment. It is heart wrenching to watch these once proud kings of DPS now struggle to attain merely average DPS.

If rogues do not receive some drastic buffs soon, the class will be completely unwanted and left behind. Please blizzard, please, buff rogues before it is too late.

Cybelirrae

< Poor Play >

Uldum

92. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 02:38:08 PM PST

GC Wrote:

Q u o t e:

Most intelligent, honest players would probably agree that rogues are a little too good in PvP and weaker than the top dps dealers on raids -- but since many of those top dealers are getting nerfed, hopefully rogues will be in a very good place after 3.0.8. But all of that is for one spec of rogue. We feel that hunters will have 3 viable trees in 3.0.8 and we'd love to get rogues into that same place. It's just harder for rogues.

One idea I see a lot is to give a little bit more armor pen to deep Combat and I think there are a lot of things we can do to deep Subt. But those changes all need to be deep, or rogues will just skim off the top of any tree to maximize their dps. Making haste, and perhaps armor pen too, a little more beneficial to melee will also bring them up, though that may mean nerfing some other classes. These aren't announcements, just the kind of things I see on the forums.

These are helpful points GC (although I'd point out that any changes involving plus Armor Pen for combat have to take into consideration that Armor Pen Rating applies after raid debuffs, which is why many pve-players hate gear with Armor Pen now), and I am not generally a sky-is-falling person about rogue performance, but even before the hunter nerfs go live, the single best DPS'er at the moment seems to be the TG warrior. I am not restricting my statements to gimmick fights either (e.g., thaddius).

I played patchwerk as mutilate last night pretty darn well, and managed to squeeze 5374 out of my current gear (pretty final Naxx 25 Gear, except for an offset item that wont drop off of Maly 25, slight neck upgrade, slight ring upgrade and a cloak upgrade). Our TG warrior effortlessly stays above all of us and the only one that even came close was a Mage on a real positive RNG streak (and in fact the warrior said he had some bad luck with that particular encounter). But TG doesn't seem to be getting addressed at all in terms of being reviewed (except for the PvP hit fix/buff and another tweak which I am told is a buff).

Are DPS warriors intended to be "pure" or "hybrid"? Is our TG warrior (and those in other "hard-core" guilds putting up big DPS numbers) considered the outlier and thus not worth addressing in a "re-balancing" sense? I mean, if they're supposed to be considered "hybrid", you'd expect to see more frequently Ret/Boomkin-like dps-performance from a TG warrior and less Mage/Hunter/Rogue/Lock numbers.

http://www.poorplay.com

Cilis

< Meliora >

Maelstrom

95. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 03:33:24 PM PST

I really want to hear if the "rogue group buff" was a slip of the tongue or not :(

Brucit

Frostmane

96. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 03:42:50 PM PST

Q u o t e:

One idea I see a lot is to give a little bit more armor pen to deep Combat and I think there are a lot of things we can do to deep Subt. But those changes all need to be deep, or rogues will just skim off the top of any tree to maximize their dps.

Hit the nail on the head. GC!

Tirador

< Solstice >

Vek'nilash

97. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 05:16:51 PM PST

Armor penetration blows for rogues GC.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

Scroll down to EP's. You'd almost rather have a point of str than a point of armor penetration.

Now here's a problem. Sinister revenge (ilvl 226) is almost worse than an ilvl 213 dagger webbed death for both hands at this point because webbed death is faster. Poison scaling has resulted in mutilate rogues wanting the 2 fastest daggers they can find, ignoring the special dmg from mutilate in favor of the dmg from poisons. The bug fix to mutilate having double chance on offhand only makes that even more true.

How about you normalize poison procs already? Or maybe throw us an envenom glyph? Mutilate rogues don't use eviscerate.

Honestly at the rate you're going FFB mages will have no rival in 3.0.8.

Baelzharon

Blackwater Raiders

98. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 05:24:15 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Not the most informative title you could have picked. :(

As someone mentioned, Mutilate rogues seem great in PvP and pretty competitive in PvE (and will probably be spot on when some other outliers are brought down). We realize the other two rogue trees aren't keeping up and we definitely want to see them get there. We also want to make sure the rogue group buffs feel competitive. This is a touchy subject because so many classes will claim there is no reason to take them to a raid, or that their buffs are inferior to someone else's counterpart. There is a grain of truth to some of the latter claims, but there is also an awful lot of of hyperbole.

I do believe ...yes I do..

Our Crustacean little friend - with nasty pincers - has a MAIN Rogue!

I can't believe I never saw this before..

Duel Pincer vs Duel WarGlaives

My favorite tell-tell::

Q u o t e:
(and will probably be spot on when some other outliers are brought down).

[ Post edited by Baelzharon ]

Snares make our life suck, but Stuns kill us.

Ryuuji

< Ducktape >

Thrall

99. Re: GC: Why? 01/08/2009 06:05:42 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I do believe ...yes I do..

Our Crustacean little friend - with nasty pincers - has a MAIN Rogue!

I can't believe I never saw this before..

Duel Pincer vs Duel WarGlaives

My favorite tell-tell::

If it makes you feel better, I had intended this thread for Rogues only, but do realize that Locks tend to get Roflstomped in PVP. Though I have seen some good numbers coming out of locks in raids, they most definitely were not chart topping numbers, or top 3 even. As I said earlier on, I realized that DK's DO take priority. They are a brand new class, its like balancing from Vanilla WoW all over again. IMO Classes that need the most changes even as of the upcoming patch(In no specific order): Rogues, Locks, Pallys. I do believe that DKs were nerfed enough(Or close too it)

As for another suggestion for GC pertaining to Rogues. It would be nice to have a Savage Combat buff, as this could be Combats raid wide buff. I'd even go as far to say as double the entire skill. 8% AP for the Rogue and 4% increased physical damage done to the target.
A deep combat talent increasing the haste % that Slice and Dice gives. Remove Unfair Advantage(Useless IMO, unless you happen to be tanking something, and Combat PVP has not really ever been viable) and replace it with a skill that buffs poisons, or an alternative to Sinister Strike(Mentioned this before, preferably something on a CD of 3-4 seconds)

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