Why oh why GC, Why are Rogues the only class with -2- changes, when we are one of the classes that needs them the most?(Behind Death Knights, and I realize that balancing a new class might take priority)
The 2 changes may have been buffs, but I don't believe that removing the FoK Cooldown will increase my Raid Boss DPS. Anyway, I was just wondering why there has been no mention of things that MIGHT happen to the Rogue class. No input on your part on what you think should be changed, or suggestions on what fixes may buff our PVE DPS. A simple question really, I just hope you respond.

Bump

Rogues are not far from the mark in PvE. We would need very small adjustments to bring us in line. Rogues are very powerful in PvP and currently the object of seething rage for many other classes because of that. If anything comes soon it would likely be PvP nerfs before PvE buffs and considering how we're not that far off in PvE, then it's fine with me.

He's responded before to say they're looking into Rogues. It takes time.

It's funny that we're the target of seething hate, especially when the top 5+ teams for 2s are Pally/DK. Quite easy to buff PVE without buffing PVP, I was just hoping GC could enlighten us a little, it would certainly take some weight off my shoulders.

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Q u o t e:
It's funny that we're the target of seething hate, especially when the top 5+ teams for 2s are Pally/DK. Quite easy to buff PVE without buffing PVP, I was just hoping GC could enlighten us a little, it would certainly take some weight off my shoulders.

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People always hate to lose control of their characters. Even if Rogues were so perfectly balanced that they won half and lost half of their fights, I still think people would hate them for their ability to stun back-to-back and for their ability to use stealth to try and choose when to begin and when to leave a fight. It's the nature of the abilities that seem to really eat at people.

I see where you're coming from. But as I said before, it really doesn't take much to buff PVE and not PVP. One simple thing is have precision reduce glancing blows. Easy enough and no effect on PVP. Have Imp Slice and Dice increase the haste given to 35%or 40%

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Q u o t e:
Not the most informative title you could have picked. :(

As someone mentioned, Mutilate rogues seem great in PvP and pretty competitive in PvE (and will probably be spot on when some other outliers are brought down). We realize the other two rogue trees aren't keeping up and we definitely want to see them get there. We also want to make sure the rogue group buffs feel competitive. This is a touchy subject because so many classes will claim there is no reason to take them to a raid, or that their buffs are inferior to someone else's counterpart. There is a grain of truth to some of the latter claims, but there is also an awful lot of of hyperbole.

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You know...For someone who's stated that "putting GC in the title of your post doesn't get more responses from me!", sometimes it sure seems like it does. ;)

(isn't a flame, just picking on the old man.)

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Q u o t e:
Not the most informative title you could have picked. :(

As someone mentioned, Mutilate rogues seem great in PvP and pretty competitive in PvE (and will probably be spot on when some other outliers are brought down). We realize the other two rogue trees aren't keeping up and we definitely want to see them get there. We also want to make sure the rogue group buffs feel competitive. This is a touchy subject because so many classes will claim there is no reason to take them to a raid, or that their buffs are inferior to someone else's counterpart. There is a grain of truth to some of the latter claims, but there is also an awful lot of of hyperbole.

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First off, I love you... Now that I got that out of the way. I hope Combat becomes a more viable PVP spec sometime in the future. But aside from that, People don't bring us because we stack Debuffs on the target but have no Buffs that feed their e-gos by pumping up the numbers on their recount.

Exactly how much Boss dps do you want? 4.5k for a full geared rogue is pretty common. If you arent getting that its you, not the class.

Rogues need it the most, i can't believe I just read that.

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Q u o t e:
Why oh why GC, Why are Rogues the only class with -2- changes, when we are one of the classes that needs them the most?(Behind Death Knights, and I realize that balancing a new class might take priority)
The 2 changes may have been buffs, but I don't believe that removing the FoK Cooldown will increase my Raid Boss DPS. Anyway, I was just wondering why there has been no mention of things that MIGHT happen to the Rogue class. No input on your part on what you think should be changed, or suggestions on what fixes may buff our PVE DPS. A simple question really, I just hope you respond.

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Rogues and DK's need the most buffs? Am i still on earth?

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Q u o t e:
Not the most informative title you could have picked. :(

As someone mentioned, Mutilate rogues seem great in PvP and pretty competitive in PvE (and will probably be spot on when some other outliers are brought down). We realize the other two rogue trees aren't keeping up and we definitely want to see them get there. We also want to make sure the rogue group buffs feel competitive. This is a touchy subject because so many classes will claim there is no reason to take them to a raid, or that their buffs are inferior to someone else's counterpart. There is a grain of truth to some of the latter claims, but there is also an awful lot of of hyperbole.

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why not give rogues its own buff that is not stackable and doesnt not get over written by other buffs... maybe each tree have its own buff...

i dont play rogue but logically it is the fastest route to guaranty rogue in raid and maybe 3 rogues with 3 different specs and buffs... but personally i dont think it is gona solve entire problem. Either way hard core raiding guild will stack the best and if 1 class gets buffed and another gets downgraded and the downgraded class will lose a raid spot.

Only way everyone will be happy for few days if everyone is mono-toned but i know that u will not do that.

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Q u o t e:


Rogues and DK's need the most buffs? Am i still on earth?

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lol. I can agree that rogues need some PvE buffs but holy cow mutilate rogues are OP in the arena for sure. DKs however definitely do not need any buffs in regards to damage or PvP.

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Q u o t e:
Not the most informative title you could have picked. :(

As someone mentioned, Mutilate rogues seem great in PvP and pretty competitive in PvE (and will probably be spot on when some other outliers are brought down). We realize the other two rogue trees aren't keeping up and we definitely want to see them get there. We also want to make sure the rogue group buffs feel competitive. This is a touchy subject because so many classes will claim there is no reason to take them to a raid, or that their buffs are inferior to someone else's counterpart. There is a grain of truth to some of the latter claims, but there is also an awful lot of of hyperbole.

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Please don't tell me you just hui-jacked a PvE post with PVP junk?

As far as i can tell here what you just said was Rogue are ok in PvP at the moment, stop complaining about your crappy raid DPS.

The 2 changes do nothing at all to the PvE dps problems rogues have. Feint is laughable at best. It still not going to be used. FoK, ok well thats kind of cool if you have blade flurry, but the AE fights still only last about 8 seconds and 2x FoK is not going to go even remotely close to fixing the issues.

The fact that everything we bring to a raid can be done easier and better by another class is the main issue. The fact that tricks of the trade NEEDS to be cast on other rogues just to get them up to par with the other dps. The fact that melee range is insanely painful on healers and CoH is getting a CD, just adds salt to the already very painful wound.

When are we likly to see changes that will make rogues a viable DPS on raids again. At the moment we take to much AE damage (The feint change will have 0 effect on this) and we do not deal damage equvilent to the ranged classes.

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Q u o t e:
Not the most informative title you could have picked. :(

As someone mentioned, Mutilate rogues seem great in PvP and pretty competitive in PvE (and will probably be spot on when some other outliers are brought down). We realize the other two rogue trees aren't keeping up and we definitely want to see them get there. We also want to make sure the rogue group buffs feel competitive. This is a touchy subject because so many classes will claim there is no reason to take them to a raid, or that their buffs are inferior to someone else's counterpart. There is a grain of truth to some of the latter claims, but there is also an awful lot of of hyperbole.

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Soley from a PvE perspective- "pretty competitive" for a class that brings nothing to raids besides DPS equates to "weak". I'm not sure how you would define "pretty competitive", but I don't think the one trick pony performing behind several other multi-trick ponies is competative.

I haven't seen anything in the patch notes that would indicate that rogue PVE DPS will begin to match the other pure classes (asside from hunters) and the hybrids, without the use of the HAT bug.
Hopefully I'm wrong.

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Q u o t e:
Why oh why GC, Why are Rogues the only class with -2- changes, when we are one of the classes that needs them the most?(Behind Death Knights, and I realize that balancing a new class might take priority)
The 2 changes may have been buffs, but I don't believe that removing the FoK Cooldown will increase my Raid Boss DPS. Anyway, I was just wondering why there has been no mention of things that MIGHT happen to the Rogue class. No input on your part on what you think should be changed, or suggestions on what fixes may buff our PVE DPS. A simple question really, I just hope you respond.

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And warlocks have 3 changes, none of which address any issues in PvP.

Removing FoK cooldown increases your trash damage, something rogues have complained about a lot lately.

I feel that rogues are probably pretty close to the mark DPS wise. Mutilate is in decent shape and is a lot of fun to play, although it has its issues relating to HFB, an unreliable raid buff (since DP will drop off after envenoms, although it will stack again quickly), and utility issues that makes PvE DPS plummet when we try to use anything that's not deadly / instant. A few tweaks to the conflicting interaction between talents (mutilate favoring a slow weapon, Focused Attacks and poisons favoring fast) and I feel at least mutilate will shine as a fun and raid viable spec. Also- nerf the Turn the Tables sound effect.

Combat could use some love, it would be great to have a way to mix up the combat rotation to a priority system a little better, although maybe not necessarily as extreme as Assassination.

No real comments on sub, HAT is just a very lame spec and I have a hard time believing that spamming eviscerate is what the designers want for any rogue spec.

Many of these and other issues are discussed in better detail with a more thoughtful analysis in threads both on this very forum as well as at elitist jerks. I trust any interested developers have read the assertions and will give them some consideration. I'll patiently be waiting for changes should they be deemed warranted.

Edited for clarity.

Yes, mutilate rogues are ok if they are decked out in the gear needed to support it. There are just to many slow daggers, and the fast daggers only drop in heroic Naxx.

What I find funny is that they think that Hunters are outliers. Really Hunters are not that OP right now in PvE. If you start looking at some of the newer parses, Warlocks, and the occasional mages are doing just as much damage as Hunters.

It is just awesome to be sub-par compared to other dps classes while gearing up, and once geared up you are just tied with them, if not still behind.