In my gear, this is the DPS increase I can expect to see per itemization point of each given stat:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6582/deepslr6.jpg

Much of the DPS gear I am expected to use has a lot of haste on it, when pretty much every other stat would provide a far superior damage increase. The fact that there's so much haste on the current set of gear leads me to believe it is supposed to be a good stat, but we can see plainly here that in comparison it fails.

Other classes are in the same type of situation. Can we expect to see anything done with haste to make it a more desirable stat for Retribution Paladins, and possibly melee in general?

Please improve Haste Rating :(

remember in tbc when people made fun of scrubs in karazhan gear because it was so easily obtained and the gear was so %*#@ty.

we are in karazhan gear right now.

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Q u o t e:
remember in tbc when people made fun of scrubs in karazhan gear because it was so easily obtained and the gear was so %*#@ty.

we are in karazhan gear right now.

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You're the same person telling retadins to gem for intellect.

Go away.

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You're the same person telling retadins to gem for intellect.

Go away.

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It was a facetious remark meant to get paladins to say, lawl its not that big of a deal that i need to gem for it. Oh wait wut did I just say?

You dumb tawt.

Thanks

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Q u o t e:
Couple of things:

1) If your gear didn't have haste, it would probably have armor pen instead. If you are imagining your gear having Str or Stam instead of the haste, you are probably picturing Ulduar or season 6 gear. :)
2) We aren't offering the best itemized gear now because we want to have something left for you to work up to. We don't want the next tier of gear to look exactly like this one, but with +2 more of each stat.
3) We do think haste and armor pen might be a little low in what you get per rating point (at least for melee). That is something we're looking at.

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1) Actually, we're imagining having crit, AP, hit, or expertise. You know, like the leather we end up wearing because haste and ArP are kinda trash.

2) That's at least heartening to hear. Though it seems odd to work in an inferior stat that you only see from 70 to early 80 just to have it outclassed by the old stats, which the better gear would just have +90 more of than the BC gear.

3) Good to hear.

Are you looking at Haste for Affliction/Shadow/Unholy/Arcane? There may be more but some specs which are either reliant on DoTs or are heavily cooldown based end up having Haste create a pretty minimal impact...

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Q u o t e:
Couple of things:

1) If your gear didn't have haste, it would probably have armor pen instead. If you are imagining your gear having Str or Stam instead of the haste, you are probably picturing Ulduar or season 6 gear. :)
2) We aren't offering the best itemized gear now because we want to have something left for you to work up to. We don't want the next tier of gear to look exactly like this one, but with +2 more of each stat.
3) We do think haste and armor pen might be a little low in what you get per rating point (at least for melee). That is something we're looking at.

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Thank you very much for the response :)
I agree with points 1 and 2. It's boring if each new piece of (Gear_n) is just (Gear_(n-1) +2stat).
At the same time, I'm sure you're aware that players don't like wearing gear with stats that don't add as much dps as another stat could (ie: spell power for Retribution Paladins in 2.3).

Also keep in mind that Armor Penetration is a better stat for Warriors than it is for Ret and DKs. If you buff it too much then it might become too powerful for the former. Similarly for Haste and Ret vs Warriors+DKs.


PS Plate armor is always so depressing. Why does it have so much stamina? Why does it only have 2-3 dps stats when Leather and Mail get 3-5?

Yeah, I've read things that even indicate haste is *bad* for spriests because mind flay is still borked. Any theorycrafters out there that can confirm/deny?

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1) Actually, we're imagining having crit, AP, hit, or expertise. You know, like the leather we end up wearing because haste and ArP are kinda trash.

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This, very much so. Extra crit would be nice. More expertise would be downright excellent.

It's sad to me that the tier gear is just kinda *meh* when it should be the top-end gear you can get for your class until the next major content patch.

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PS Plate armor is always so depressing. Why does it have so much stamina? Why does it only have 2-3 dps stats when Leather and Mail get 3-5?

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^^ This. It doesn't help when the 2-3 dps stats we get are usually the same haste and ArP that we're railing against here, AttT considered and everything.

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Q u o t e:
Couple of things:

1) If your gear didn't have haste, it would probably have armor pen instead. If you are imagining your gear having Str or Stam instead of the haste, you are probably picturing Ulduar or season 6 gear. :)
2) We aren't offering the best itemized gear now because we want to have something left for you to work up to. We don't want the next tier of gear to look exactly like this one, but with +2 more of each stat.
3) We do think haste and armor pen might be a little low in what you get per rating point (at least for melee). That is something we're looking at.

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I guess I can see it now. However, it is kind of disheartening to see most of the haste coming from our tier sets, which in my past experience has usually been a no-brainer to take in terms of damage potential. The set bonus has also proven to be very effective, so I guess I'll just have to live with my 500 haste :-/

I am usually prot but speced ret for the holiday and found that 25% of my damage done, even on aoe situations is melee white damage. I asked another tank who went fury for the holiday what % of his dmg was white and he told me 50%. Seems to me like haste is decent considering you can get plate with a fair amount of haste along with the normal stats or leather with no haste and only slightly more other stats. But like I said, I'm just holiday ret.

Also I could see a huge scaling problem if gear right now had more crit/atk/str/agi or whatever apposed to haste and armor pen. Would be weak to have 50% crit at the end of nax. Maybe if they add dr to it they could pull that off. Also it would put more problems in pvp. Haste and armor pen are nice since they aren't nearly as useful in pvp.

They needed to implement a stat like Spirit for melee too.

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Q u o t e:
Couple of things:

1) If your gear didn't have haste, it would probably have armor pen instead. If you are imagining your gear having Str or Stam instead of the haste, you are probably picturing Ulduar or season 6 gear. :)
2) We aren't offering the best itemized gear now because we want to have something left for you to work up to. We don't want the next tier of gear to look exactly like this one, but with +2 more of each stat.
3) We do think haste and armor pen might be a little low in what you get per rating point (at least for melee). That is something we're looking at.

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1. Expertise? Plate is BADLY missing this on hit/crit gear, while leather sees it flow like candy. Actually, I KNOW if paladin/dk pieces didnt have the over-budget haste and arp, they would have exp instead, because EVERY OTHER melee class has expertise instead of that extra haste/arp. Yeah, you might want to look at that. Agi? Still better than those two. Enough hit to hit the cap without having to use bad gem/enchant choices? AP? Hell, even Int? You know, the stat thats pretty crappy, but still about twice as good as haste/arp?

2. You're again failing badly to itemize plate. Going from a straight numbers perspective, the only plate I SHOULD be wearing is Valo Redemption Helm, BP, Shoulders and Glove, and Belabored Legplates. Once again, Leather and or Mail (one has int, one generally has more haste/arp, putting them somewhat roughly equal) win for belt, bracer, boots and frankly, chest/helm/glove too (but 4piece t7 is... really absurdly good).

I dont mind if every piece of gear isnt chock full of str, hit, crit and expertise, but if that cant exist for plate (and only for 2 classes at that), why can I "downgrade" my gear to leather or mail and get more crit, more expertise, easier hit cap, more agi (look, even more crit for a completely crit dependant spec...) and lose minimal to NO AP in doing so? Hell, I can even gain more int on the few pieces of mail gear I could wear, which means more mana regen through replenishment and divine plea, which means a far less likely chance to oom myself due to ret's still ridiculous mana issues on fights without continuous large-scale raid-wide damage.

Havent we learned by now that armor in a pve raid enviornment (and really, anywhere) means very little? Saying "hey, we purposefully fail at itemization for plate" just means "Hey, theres a leather belt thats BiS by a tremendous margin, because its not heavily overbudgeted for stamina"

On another note, while its cute to cut off a 5th stat on plate dps gear, and add gobs more sta, its just another reason why some classes (expecially those without an armor -> something useful in raids conversion) want to use mail/leather. If a leather belt can have agi, sta, AP, hit and expertise... do you think, possibly, a plate belt could have something that isnt: slightly more str than equivalent AP, 1.5x the stamina, 5 more hit rating than the leather, less crit than the equivalent agi?

It may not be fun and exciting to upgrade everything slightly, but it sure beats getting loot that isnt actually an upgrade because 30% of its item budget is spent on something so undervalued, you'd rather have a stat that your class doesnt even "use" anymore.


3. Haste and arp are pretty much worth half of what any other stat could provide, at least for 2h builds. Thats a far cry from "a little low". thats "Avoid this stat when possible because it proves itself to be worse than int".

They're WORSE THAN INT FOR A RET PALADIN. That alone should tell you something, seeing as int is the stat we werre told we shouldnt even need anymore (which, as we all know, is wrong, for reasons not related to itemization)

I had pretty much assumed this, but thanks for the re-assurance