World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Are you kidding me? Seriously?

Miyalol

Arena Tournament 1

0. Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 05:33:22 PM PST

Are you kidding me? Is this a very early, and unwelcome April Fools?

Q u o t e:
It's likely the game would devolve into silencing or CC'ing the healer and specs that rely on doing a lot of damage would be shut out as gear improved.

That's what made this game take skill. I don't know if your intention is to make it require less skill, so that, despite the differences in skill between players, we move closer to your ideal pvp scenario where everyone loses half the time:

Q u o t e:
If the PvP matchmaking is working well, however, you will lose 50% of every match...

Teams with high skill levels in earlier seasons could attain perfect, or near-perfect win/loss records, while battling their way to the top. Now, not so much.

The skill in this game comes from maximizing your class's potential, using your abilities to the best of their ability. )You should know this, you made Starcraft, one of the highest skillcapped games in existence, and look how well that did!) And yet here we are, all it takes to maximize your class' potential is 3-4 abilities. Tops. I don't know if you guys watch PvP videos over there, but take a look at a few, see what the game used to be like. I recommend Hoodrych, Neilyo, Hydra, Emolol, any of their later stuff.

At the very least, acknowledge that the pvp game isn't as skillful or fun as it used to be, don't act like this doesn't need fixing, and don't pretend that resilience will be enough, because it sure wasn't at 70 during 3.0.

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Seltis

< Chaos >

Medivh

1. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 05:48:58 PM PST

I've come to realize something.

I like the game overall, despite QQing about some topics, but what I enjoy is primarily endgame PvP. Although quests and new scenery can be somewhat interesting the first time, killing the 8729th mob by spamming the same two abilities with no particular need for tactics or CC while leveling and grinding gets old.

Yet there are a huge fraction of players who like that grind as much or more than PvP, and some of them want PvP to be like it. They never figured out how to use CC or complexity in tactics. They got annoyed when they ran up to a healer, started whacking the healer like a mob, and found the healer's health bar not going down much within their attention span.

Those are the players who complained that 3 or 4 of them couldn't kill one healer on the battlegrounds in TBC (when one or occasionally two DPS players in good 2v2 teams regularly killed healers).

It's unfortunate that Blizzard has decided to pander more towards those customers than the rest.

[ Post edited by Seltis ]

Thistlebee

< Natural Born Killers >

Ner'zhul

2. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 05:49:13 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Are you kidding me? Is this a very early, and unwelcome April Fools?

That's what made this game take skill. I don't know if your intention is to make it require less skill, so that, despite the differences in skill between players, we move closer to your ideal pvp scenario where everyone loses half the time:

Teams with high skill levels in earlier seasons could attain perfect, or near-perfect win/loss records, while battling their way to the top. Now, not so much.

The skill in this game comes from maximizing your class's potential, using your abilities to the best of their ability. )You should know this, you made Starcraft, one of the highest skillcapped games in existence, and look how well that did!) And yet here we are, all it takes to maximize your class' potential is 3-4 abilities. Tops. I don't know if you guys watch PvP videos over there, but take a look at a few, see what the game used to be like. I recommend Hoodrych, Neilyo, Hydra, Emolol, any of their later stuff.

At the very least, acknowledge that the pvp game isn't as skillful or fun as it used to be, don't act like this doesn't need fixing, and don't pretend that resilience will be enough, because it sure wasn't at 70 during 3.0.

Good post, hopefully blizzard will listen to better pvpers.

I dont pvp that much but how can you not see this. If I want to pvp I'll just play warhammer.

Pick your analogy. The DPS player is the quarterback, the soprano, the lead singer. ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: AWESOME! BECUZ U R! -Ghostcrawler

Hosiery

< Brethren >

Scilla

3. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 05:51:35 PM PST

The majority of players are bad. Appealing to the majority will the most advantageous approach with profit in mind. Instead of getting better, I think it'll just get worse.

prov

Miyalol

Arena Tournament 1

4. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 08:48:13 PM PST

Bump, some intelligent reponses here, hopefully a blue will read this. The GC quote about the game "devolving" into what was considered skill, really gets me. Ever heard of Warrior/Lock/Druid? Priest/Mage/Rogue?

They were powerful because they offered the best in damage, survivability, and control. They played totally different from eachother, and the best part was, their potential was through the roof. Each individual player's class had such a huge skill cap, so many things a priest can do for rmp, for example...It feels like that's all gone now.

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Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

5. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:23:04 PM PST

Totally agree that the matches like you are describing can involve a lot of skill. But we also heard from plenty of players during the heydey of maxed out resilience that they felt like they couldn't compete because pure damage dealing wasn't of much use in an Arena. Instead, every class was asking for CC, counter CC, ways to close the gap, ways to interrupt or silence, etc. Damage itself was devalued. Even today you can see players who are glad to no longer have 20+ minute Arenas that feel more like chess matches.

Things may be too bursty now, but I think we've also been in a state where CC'ing or draining the healer was basically the whole game too. I think there is a sweet spot somewhere, but I didn't want players to think that was a very different place than what we thought.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

Fava

Rexxar

6. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:30:55 PM PST

De-evolving is the right term.

Chain cc isn't skill.

Just requires you to pay attention to your addons.

Resia

< HJPU >

Chromaggus

8. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:33:53 PM PST

I know Blizzard is trying to balance the game so that everyone can enjoy the game. A question I have is what environment does Blizzard as a team want in terms of PvP arenas? Past arena seasons have been long matches. However, season 5 has been mostly quick short arena matches.

Hosiery

< Brethren >

Scilla

9. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:34:42 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Totally agree that the matches like you are describing can involve a lot of skill. But we also heard from plenty of players during the heydey of maxed out resilience that they felt like they couldn't compete because pure damage dealing wasn't of much use in an Arena. Instead, every class was asking for CC, counter CC, ways to close the gap, ways to interrupt or silence, etc. Damage itself was devalued. Even today you can see players who are glad to no longer have 20+ minute Arenas that feel more like chess matches.

Things may be too bursty now, but I think we've also been in a state where CC'ing or draining the healer was basically the whole game too. I think there is a sweet spot somewhere, but I didn't want players to think that was a very different place than what we thought.

This was because resto druids were overpowered, period. You took the responses that people gave based upon a single overpowered class dominating arena representation and went a bit overboard though. Even if this wasn't just an issue with one class, things are n't just black and white. The game didn't need to go from being focused on coordinating crowd control and playing strategically, to mashing damage abilities in rapid succession with reckless disregard for anything else. Playing like this should not allow you to win; players who were in the 1400-1500s in BC should not be 1900-2k currently, this is indicative of one thing: this game has been dumbed down too much.

Even in bc, there were people decked out almost entirely in the best gear available, running overpowered comps such as warrior/druid, who were still stuck in the 1600s. Team composition may have given a huge advantage to competent players, or given a moderate advantage to poor ones, but you could not succeed based upon your classes alone. This is no longer the case.

prov

Wonton

Farstriders

10. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:36:33 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Totally agree that the matches like you are describing can involve a lot of skill. But we also heard from plenty of players during the heydey of maxed out resilience that they felt like they couldn't compete because pure damage dealing wasn't of much use in an Arena. Instead, every class was asking for CC, counter CC, ways to close the gap, ways to interrupt or silence, etc. Damage itself was devalued. Even today you can see players who are glad to no longer have 20+ minute Arenas that feel more like chess matches.

Things may be too bursty now, but I think we've also been in a state where CC'ing or draining the healer was basically the whole game too. I think there is a sweet spot somewhere, but I didn't want players to think that was a very different place than what we thought.

Um, you're saying that arena being like chess is a bad thing? Chess takes more thought, skill, and strategy than almost any other game out there.

Healing PVP in WOTLK. Best 2 seconds of my life!

-Briefy

Hosiery

< Brethren >

Scilla

11. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:37:48 PM PST

Q u o t e:
De-evolving is the right term.

Chain cc isn't skill.

Just requires you to pay attention to your addons.

It requires more "skill" than mashing 1-1-1-2-1-1-3-1-1 as you're fighting patchwerk

prov

Niet

Black Dragonflight

14. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:40:46 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Things may be too bursty now, but I think we've also been in a state where CC'ing or draining the healer was basically the whole game too. I think there is a sweet spot somewhere, but I didn't want players to think that was a very different place than what we thought.

Wow.

"Religion doesn’t mean changing the world around myself. It means changing my eyes, my ears, my way of seeing and my head." - Kodo Sawaki, 20th century Zen Priest

Hosiery

< Brethren >

Scilla

15. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:40:51 PM PST

Q u o t e:

And chess in wow requires picking the right class up to four years ago, and know ahead of time which class will suck hard and which will do well.

There were people of every class who got gladiator in every bracket. There have undoubtably always been more counters or more of a disadvantage for some, but this isn't an excuse.

prov

Bustier

< Brethren >

Scilla

17. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:45:26 PM PST

You guys really thought that making this game more mindless, when the lack of ability to excel with skill was already a complaint in bc, was a good decision? I guess for the majority of your player-base it probably is, since this game is very popular with children. But I hope you realize that you're going to lose a huge portion of dedicated players with changes like this. These are the players who are giving you the constructive feedback on the forums, and who are dedicating their time to beta testing and helping in any way they can. Don't crap on them.

I thought you guys "didn't appeal to what people were crying about on the forums" - what happened to that?

Hosiery

< Brethren >

Scilla

18. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:47:25 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I'm not claiming it's an excuse.

I'm just saying it was easier for some than for others.

You made it sound much more extreme than that; like none of this matters anyway because certain classes already couldn't compete. If this was the only point you were trying to get across, there would've been no point in really saying it. If certain classes are imbalanced than they should be fixed. They shouldn't just give up and take a heaping dump on the whole system because it's convenient.

[ Post edited by Hosiery ]

prov

Mace

Burning Legion

19. Re: Are you kidding me? Seriously? 12/27/2008 09:48:13 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Totally agree that the matches like you are describing can involve a lot of skill. But we also heard from plenty of players during the heydey of maxed out resilience that they felt like they couldn't compete because pure damage dealing wasn't of much use in an Arena. Instead, every class was asking for CC, counter CC, ways to close the gap, ways to interrupt or silence, etc. Damage itself was devalued. Even today you can see players who are glad to no longer have 20+ minute Arenas that feel more like chess matches.

Things may be too bursty now, but I think we've also been in a state where CC'ing or draining the healer was basically the whole game too. I think there is a sweet spot somewhere, but I didn't want players to think that was a very different place than what we thought.

This post shows me the direction Blizzard is taking with PvP and the game itself. And honeslty this is shocking to me. Sadly, healers suffer the most because of this.

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING