World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work

Senari

< Incarnate >

Wildhammer

21. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:04:00 AM PST

In addition to my Poison Question.

Q u o t e:
I agree we have some work to do on Holy priests in PvP.

What do you have in mind?

Demina - 70 Human Warlock - Retired.

Lajia

< LNR >

Gurubashi

22. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:04:21 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Having a "focused will" for each tree is kinda cheesy.

We do not have a "focused will" in every tree. If you're thinking focused will and blessed resillience are the same you are mistaken. One activates on a crit, stacks, decreases damage and increases healing. The other might activate on a crit, prevents you from getting crit again. They're different mechanics.

Women are like Voltron. The more you add, the better it gets.

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Trellan

< Tide >

Ravencrest

23. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:05:52 AM PST

Q u o t e:
First, I think the warlocks would disagree pretty vehemently about their survivability. This message comes up pretty regularly on the damage forums.

Second, we know it's posible to make very tough priests, because Disc priests were exactly like that in later seasons. It took a high amount of resilience gear and some specific talent choices, but they could take a lot of damage and heal themselves through a certain amount of it.

I agree we have some work to do on Holy priests in PvP.

I think the concept of a cloth class without a lot of mobiliy that is supposed to just heal itself through damage would be a pretty hard sell. But we try to address it on the mitigation side for priests (and the occasional fear bomb doesn't hurt).

When I rolled my first priest for PvP (yes I have two), I didn't envision being a tank. I envisioned being a glass healer -- the healy version of the mage, with lots of escape tools and ways to avoid getting hit in the first place. Of course, I was naive and ignorant back then, but I quickly learned that priest = tank in PvP.

Honestly, I think that's what you should focus on -- allowing healers to heal their teammates, instead of constantly tanking and simply self-healing. Give dis-incentives for teams that decide to focus the healer.

PvP tanking is old and tired. I'd rather not do it anymore.

Geoghan

< Arisèn >

Frostmane

24. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:06:51 AM PST

agree 100% with the OP. Priests have zero escape mechanism.

Arisèn forums - http://betterthanzombies.com/forum/

Lajia

< LNR >

Gurubashi

25. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:06:59 AM PST

Q u o t e:

I understand what you're saying, but please let's not doom us to be FORCED into one spec. I am one of those people that try different crap out just for kicks. I would love to try a Holy Build if I felt that way one day, and be competitive in PvP. Not because I heal for a ton, but because I have the talents that help me perform well. Trying to put all our eggs into the Discipline Tree basket can really backfire.

Also, where would that leave Shadow...which certainly has its own problems right now.

Right now to be competitive in PvP we're forced in to two trees. Sure you can go disc only, or holy only, but you're going to be rogue fodder.

And yes, I would totally agree shadow has it's own issues. Essentially, I would just like the tools to survive a rogue attack which don't involve pole-dancing around a lightwell.

Women are like Voltron. The more you add, the better it gets.

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Morgun

< Scorched Earth >

Ner'zhul

26. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:07:53 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Second, we know it's posible to make very tough priests, because Disc priests were exactly like that in later seasons

Quote from another thread -

Q u o t e:
Dynamics shift dramatically as players acquire more resilience gear. Specs and comps that aren't viable in straight PvE gear become much more viable when burst damage decreases. We have seen this happen for four seasons now.

We haven't made an effort to keep the dynamic from shifting, nor do we think it's a problem that the dynamic shifts. On the contrary, if you didn't notice any effect from all that gladiator gear you were acquiring, it would be much less motivational as a reward.

Likewise, if you could heal through tons of damage even without a lot of PvP gear, then what would happen with lots of PvP gear? It's likely the game would devolve into silencing or CC'ing the healer and specs that rely on doing a lot of damage would be shut out as gear improved.

As I have said in a few threads, most players agree that the strength of healing increases as the burst damage endemic to crits decreases. The only question is to what degree.

So it sounds like things will be much better when we good good resilience gear. Doesn't the good stuff require arena ratings in the first place? Sounds like a gear discrepancy is going to be a large problem...

Volun

< Illyria >

Windrunner

28. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:12:00 AM PST

Q u o t e:

We do not have a "focused will" in every tree. If you're thinking focused will and blessed resillience are the same you are mistaken. One activates on a crit, stacks, decreases damage and increases healing. The other might activate on a crit, prevents you from getting crit again. They're different mechanics.

I don't know if I should commend you for pointing out the obvious or cry that you missed the point.

Lajia

< LNR >

Gurubashi

29. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:12:08 AM PST

Q u o t e:

I think what he's getting at is every spec of Priest has to spec for survivability...how many Priests are going FW/BR builds at the moment just to try and live yet still aren't? To me, forget it...if you're going to die, you either:

A) Take Spirit of Redemption because you don't have the reaction time to live more than 10-15 seconds so you're best off healing in that form.

B) Take Penance because you might as well have the healing throughput necessary to keep your partner up and having run into the other teams like a madman.

Either way I see it, another thing that would be nice would be being able to heal ourselves with Penance. I think this has been suggested since the beginning of beta, but I will tell you right now, it would help out a ton.

I agree, self healing with penance would be fantastic, but I think you'd probably find yourself getting interrupted a lot. It's not like a flash heal where you can "fake cast" it trying to get a mage or rogue to waste an interrupt (not that fake casting is viable against a rogue anyway, it would probably get you killed even faster). The channeling effect would be fairly dangerous to get countered.

Women are like Voltron. The more you add, the better it gets.

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Brassiere

< Harajuku Girls >

Scilla

30. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:17:25 AM PST

Q u o t e:

I agree, self healing with penance would be fantastic, but I think you'd probably find yourself getting interrupted a lot. It's not like a flash heal where you can "fake cast" it trying to get a mage or rogue to waste an interrupt (not that fake casting is viable against a rogue anyway, it would probably get you killed even faster). The channeling effect would be fairly dangerous to get countered.

you could just cancel the cast, as you get the first tick instantly

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scilla&n=Hosiery

"It's likely the game would devolve into silencing or CC'ing the healer and specs that rely on doing a lot of damage would be shut ou

Lajia

< LNR >

Gurubashi

32. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:18:42 AM PST

That's a fair point (both of you) about penance ticks. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

Women are like Voltron. The more you add, the better it gets.

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Heinousdwarf

Cairne

33. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:21:52 AM PST

The Priest format really baffles me too. I do like PvP tanking, but sometimes I just get annoyed when a class like Rogues come along with all thier tools and just flaunt them, mean while I'm waiting for ProM to cooldown, I'm waiting to refresh Renew, I'm waiting for PW:S lame debuff to go away, and I'm waiting for him to go below 25 energy so that maybe I can get a Flash Heal... WAITING WAITING WAITING.

I WANT TO DO SOMETHING, DAMN IT. I WANT A LITTLE BIT OF GOD DAMN CONTROL IN A FIGHT.

I have no idea why they removed Chastise. It was actually something different for Priests. Even if it was just 2 seconds it was still a welcomed addition to the PvP Priests arsenal.

Instead, we got a pretty meh mana regen spell that personally I never use because I don't need to (but probably will be using in more advanced raids I admit).

Give us back Chastise so that we have something else to do when a Melee is beating on us. Even if it's just two seconds, it was great. (Although I'd prefer it on a shorter cooldown.)

Senari

< Incarnate >

Wildhammer

34. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:24:54 AM PST

Q u o t e:
The Priest format really baffles me too. I do like PvP tanking, but sometimes I just get annoyed when a class like Rogues come along with all thier tools and just flaunt them, mean while I'm waiting for ProM to cooldown, I'm waiting to refresh Renew, I'm waiting for PW:S lame debuff to go away, and I'm waiting for him to go below 25 energy so that maybe I can get a Flash Heal... WAITING WAITING WAITING.

I WANT TO DO SOMETHING, DAMN IT. I WANT A LITTLE BIT OF GOD DAMN CONTROL IN A FIGHT.

I have no idea why they removed Chastise. It was actually something different for Priests. Even if it was just 2 seconds it was still a welcomed addition to the PvP Priests arsenal.

Instead, we got a pretty meh mana regen spell that personally I never use because I don't need to (but probably will be using in more advanced raids I admit).

Give us back Chastise so that we have something else to do when a Melee is beating on us. Even if it's just two seconds, it was great. (Although I'd prefer it on a shorter cooldown.)

I agree, some control would be nice.

I really just miss the flare that went with being a Healing (disc) priest in PvP and how we could be incredibly hard to kill......until we were purge spamed or Viper Stung to death.

My Poison question still stands GC :)

Demina - 70 Human Warlock - Retired.

Lajia

< LNR >

Gurubashi

35. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:25:39 AM PST

I would trade hymn of useless for chastise in a second, without hesitation. Especially if they made it so it didn't share a cooldown with fear. 2 sec stun is better than aoe stun that never works the way you'd like it to.

Women are like Voltron. The more you add, the better it gets.

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Brassiere

< Harajuku Girls >

Scilla

37. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:28:32 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I would trade hymn of useless for chastise in a second, without hesitation. Especially if they made it so it didn't share a cooldown with fear. 2 sec stun is better than aoe stun that never works the way you'd like it to.

i'd trade both hymn's without a seconds thought, I imagine anyone would with pvp in mind

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scilla&n=Hosiery

"It's likely the game would devolve into silencing or CC'ing the healer and specs that rely on doing a lot of damage would be shut ou

Lajia

< LNR >

Gurubashi

38. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:30:15 AM PST

Q u o t e:

i'd trade both hymn's without a seconds thought, I imagine anyone would with pvp in mind

Rofl, no kidding. Because we really needed a level 35 mage evocate.

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Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

39. Re: Cloth tank pvp concept doesnt work 12/24/2008 01:30:21 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Look at it this way, it's FUN when a mob is attacking you, it gives you a certain thrill than just sitting back and spamming fireballs. However, it's not fun to get 2 shot when that mob is attacking you. The same applies to pvp. What all casters need is more BASE LINE skills that give them the basics to survive and talents help augment that. Having a "focused will" for each tree is kinda cheesy. Then having to add on a spell warding, blessed recovery, and needing to go down to meditation, you're pretty much left with nothing to help you to actually heal.

I understand your point, but we actually do ask players to choose between more damage or healing and survivability. It is supposed to be an interesting decision. When you really want a talent because it is really useful for PvP and that prevents you from getting another talent that you also ideally want, you can argue that means the talent trees are actually working. One of the things I like about PvP specs is they do place a lot more emphasis on hybrid builds in order to pick up certain talents, while a great many PvE specs choose one tree and try to max it out.

I am probably taking the mob example far beyond what you intended, but I think it is actually illustrative. You are going to defeat, by a huge order of magnitude, most of the mobs you meet. In many examples it won't even be a challenge -- you will two shot them. If the PvP matchmaking is working well, however, you will lose 50% of every match (and that assumes classes are perfectly balanced, which I won't pretend to claim). It is much harder to feel like a hero in an Arena because we aren't trying to make you feel like a hero. Psychologically, I think that is a bigger deal than a lot of players realize.

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