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Q u o t e:


This makes me wonder something. I can't help but think that you would want players to have access to resilience. I have always thought the entry level pvp gear (currently the pvp blue set) should have ample quantities of resilience, and suffer offensive or healing stats as a consequence. Currently the blue set is mediocre for both offense/healing and resilience. Why exactly can't the current blue pvp set be made epic and fill that extra budget room with resilience? You could even shave off some of the "fun" stats too for all I care.

Entry level pvp gear should give you some degree of survivability, which it doesn't. Once you can survive for more than a few seconds you can actually begin working on better pvp gear such as the arena rewards.

As it stands now you need either arena gear, or raid gear to even try to compete. The blue pvp gear is obsolete before you even equip it.

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Seconded. I would love it if the craftable stuff and the blue honor gear gave up even more spell/attack power or regen stats in exchange for more resilience. At the moment, it's really tough to break 600 resilience wearing that gear, and even at 600, you still get exploded. It doesn't leave a good taste in an entry-level PvPer's mouth when they spend lots of time and/or mats on that gear and still don't have a shot at living through a stunlock.

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Q u o t e:


Entry level pvp gear should give you some degree of survivability, which it doesn't.

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This.

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Q u o t e:
Resilience will make a difference - remember that not only is PvP gear itemized for resilience, but it uses up points that would normally be spent on +dps. The defenses are not only higher, but the offenses are lower. Furthermore, once players can survive for a few seconds, it tends to force everyone to worry about defenses once again. Will resilience make enough of a difference? That is something we are discussing right now.

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I don't really respond much to these threads, since I've never gotten a responce from a blue, but maybe there will be an off chance you see this.

In theory you are right, and itemizing PvP gear with more defensive stats does lower damage overall, but there is a big issue that has been happening since s3 ( I should know, I was a 4/4 t3/s3 geared rogue ). The problem is, damage dealing classes like rogues/DKs, will always be favoring mix/matching PvP/PvE gear, and from that comes little to no damage loss as well as gaining enough defensive ability to survive ( if you play correctly and use cooldowns correctly ).

Now I don't mind PvE weapons being itemized better, that is an advantage of course, but I know you guys can itemize PvP weapons to be minimally less then the top teir weapon ( usually 10-15 top end difference, a few higher points in DPS, with minimal more AP/crit/hit/haste etc ), to give that player the feel hes more unique and powerful then the random X player with that seasons PvP weapon. The big problem is putting so much defensive stats on the PvP armor, that DPS oriented classes would rather get PvE gear to compensate for the fact that the itemization is BAD for that class ( mainly DKs/Rogues ). I know for a fact as a DK, that I am actually forced to find key PvE items with +hit on it because you guys put no hit on our season gear, and put it on badly itemized offpeices that arent even close to what you can gain from PvE.

Personally, I think you guys need to rethink how to itemize PvP gear for DPS classes, you want to make PvP season armor close to its PvE counterpart ( subbing high haste/hit/ap/gem sockets for MINIMAL stamina/resilence/crit with enough +hit to reach the PvP hit cap ). I can tell you right now from personal experience from a rogues perspective in top-end arena, along with the feel of DKs, that currently PvE gear will always be above and beyond more appealing, 2-4 peice ( for the minimal damage loss, increased resil, and set bonus's ) arena armor will be all a DK/rogue will need/want.

Back in s3, people complained about how powerful a rogue was, but in truth the glaringly overpowered aspect of a rogue, was having warglaives/t3 2/4 peice along with 2-4 peice s3 arena armor ( 6% increased damage to hemo, 5% increased haste with SnD along with much better itemization in stats lol ). You guys even nerfed ShS/glove bonus, for whatever reason, but truthfully to me those abilities arent what made a rogue "overpowered" compared to other classes, it was those abilities + top end PvE armor that pushed rogues overboard.

Make PvP armor more appealing to DPS classes ( mainly rogues/DKs ), please.

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Q u o t e:

Please quit then, no one will miss you


And how can you not be having fun as a paladin right now.

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I play a paladin and i think the current PvP is BS even with The survivability we have that is solely granted by bubble that is only 12sec. Once that 12sec is up we drop as fast as everyone else.

PvP is crap right now. I have no fun pvping atm i will do it so i can get some PvP gear so that when this is under control i can compete. I still dislike arena but i prob should do it just to get some point for gear. None of this takes away form the fact that pvp sucks and all though there will be some people who relish the fact that they can faceroll up in rankings there are many of us who find that pretty boring and enjoy competition more than slamming of my head on the keyboard.

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Q u o t e:


While that was true to an extent, if you look at the Lich King PvP gear, you'll see that it pays a higher price for resilience. In previous seasons, you could get very high dps and resilience on the same set of gear. That is harder to do now. Rogues, like everyone else, will be risking being very fragile if they go with all PvE gear for the damage. That isn't happening now because very few people have much PvP gear. Once players can survive a few hits, then players without resilience are going to go down quickly.

(Weapons are an exception to this, at least for now.)

Again, I'm not saying that burst damage won't still be too high. That is something we're looking at.

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If I die in 2 hits with or 3 hits without, why would I wear res gear?

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Q u o t e:


While that was true to an extent, if you look at the Lich King PvP gear, you'll see that it pays a higher price for resilience. In previous seasons, you could get very high dps and resilience on the same set of gear. That is harder to do now. Rogues, like everyone else, will be risking being very fragile if they go with all PvE gear for the damage. That isn't happening now because very few people have much PvP gear. Once players can survive a few hits, then players without resilience are going to go down quickly.

(Weapons are an exception to this, at least for now.)

Again, I'm not saying that burst damage won't still be too high. That is something we're looking at.

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Lol, we are fragile anyways.

As many have pointed out, rogues benefit far less from resil than other classes. We might as well use PvE gear so we can hope to kill people in the 20s of our stuns/clos/evasion/dismantle.

edit: We pvp by controlling and avoiding damage, not standing toe to toe like other melee.

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Q u o t e:


While that was true to an extent, if you look at the Lich King PvP gear, you'll see that it pays a higher price for resilience. In previous seasons, you could get very high dps and resilience on the same set of gear. That is harder to do now. Rogues, like everyone else, will be risking being very fragile if they go with all PvE gear for the damage. That isn't happening now because very few people have much PvP gear. Once players can survive a few hits, then players without resilience are going to go down quickly.

(Weapons are an exception to this, at least for now.)

Again, I'm not saying that burst damage won't still be too high. That is something we're looking at.

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How are you going to rectify this added cost of Resilience with the fact that melee, simply by virtue of being melee get a large amount more DPS every arena season by getting a new weapon via either PvP or PvE channels?

Also please note that as a Warlock I have utterly no hope to be fixed by this Season, the next Season or quite possibly Season 7; I just think it's funny that someone at Blizzard thinks blanket effects to gear which casters will suffer from to while leaving Weapon DPS unchecked will balance the game somehow.

Please stop judging all casters by the Mage class. I know they're archetypal but none of us have the same level of control over melee that they do.

For that matter please stop judging all melee by the Rogue class.

Do you guys really wanna go back to the days where I, a resto druid, could outheal 3 melee going all out? PvP is much more challenging as a healer and it also lets the DPS classes take part. I don't see why everyone is crying.

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Do you guys really wanna go back to the days where I, a resto druid, could outheal 3 melee going all out? PvP is much more challenging as a healer and it also lets the DPS classes take part. I don't see why everyone is crying.

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A resto druid never survived 3 melee unless those three players were terribads. One rogue smart enough to chain his different CC abilities from stuns to blind was tough for a druid in TBC, let alone two attackers.

(I'm not surprised to notice you decided to level up another class for WOTLK and have no arena teams now).

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Again, I'm not saying that burst damage won't still be too high. That is something we're looking at.

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It is! for god sakes, you're still going on with this "Lets wait and see" crap. I think I'm going to be sick.

And if you wanted more clarification, couldn't you just look at all the information we gave you in Beta? And if that's not enough, why don't you and your little development team, enter a BG/Arena with the best possible PVP gear you can obtain and test it.

Do you not see the flaw in "It might be balanced when we're all maxed out on resilience." Now I'm speaking as a healer. If a PVE DPS utterly destroys a PVE Healer doesn't that tell you that either

A: The DPS class has way too many interrupts, CC breaks, debuffs, and too much burst.
B: Healers don't have enough tools, defenses, and CC

I'm going to go with both A and B here.

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It is hard to nail the sweet spot on Arena balance, and what that sweet spot is depends a lot on what role you play. At times players have felt that they couldn't prevent someone from healing, which turns the entire fight into mana draining, silence and crowd control, since nobody ever dies. Damage-dealers were frustrated because they felt like just beating on someone (which their entire spec may have been designed around) was ineffective.

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DPS always mattered, though, since, after all, for example, the amount of damage done during a period of CC depends just as much upon DPS as CC length. Do 1500 DPS during a 6 sec stun, and that was 9000 damage, versus 6000 damage done if 1000 DPS, and so on.

The only thing that was ineffective was "just beating on someone" without proper usage of interrupts, crowd control, and other abilities requiring some skill.

People have suggested before a damage-increasing timer debuff limiting arena matches to several minutes. That would avoid too long matches yet allow health points to be increased so fights weren't nearly quite so short as now.

I don't want 40 minute matches but I don't want deaths in 5 seconds either. Such a timed debuff could be the easy way to allow longer fights than now without worrying about them going on forever.

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Im tired to be nice

OMG U TESTED ARENA FOR ABOUT 4 MONTHS AND PEOPLE TOLD U WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN

You gave lots of crits and burst damage to all class so u could put all dps specs in the same pve meter.

RESULT?

PALADINS + PLATE GEAR +DAMAGE MITIGATION + BURST DAMAGE = GODS
DKS + PLATE GEAR +HUGHE BURST DAMAGE= EVIL GODS

CLOTH = DIE + DIE + DIE

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Lol I like the Evil Gods part nice. Oh, and change "Cloth" to Warlocks and Priests - Blizzard actually gives Mages anti melee abilities.

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Lol, we are fragile anyways.

As many have pointed out, rogues benefit far less from resil than other classes. We might as well use PvE gear so we can hope to kill people in the 20s of our stuns/clos/evasion/dismantle.

edit: We pvp by controlling and avoiding damage, not standing toe to toe like other melee.

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try to run what GC is saying through your brain. i've been saying it for weeks...

a dps class is in pve gear which is designed to do lots of damage in short amounts of time. he gets the jump on someone wearing pve gear which isn't designed to mitigate any damage at all(outside of tanks). the guy that got the jump 2 shots the other guy. the other guy starts picking up pvp gear. his survivability starts to go up. he finally reaches a point where he no longer gets 3 shot and he and his teammates have sufficient time to react. the damage dealer wearing pve gear gets blown up in 2 globals.

now the damage dealer realizes he needs to increase his survivability and therefore goes and gets some pvp gear himself. he now gains survivability. as a side effect his damage goes down. now the guy he's attacking has gained survivability from his own gear and the other guys gear. nobody gets 3 shot any more.

when/if rogues/mages/pallies/etc... aren't able to gib people in pve gear any longer they'll make the switch. this isn't TBC and rogues lost a bit of survivability. they drop like rocks when you catch them in pve gear.

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Q u o t e:


While that was true to an extent, if you look at the Lich King PvP gear, you'll see that it pays a higher price for resilience. In previous seasons, you could get very high dps and resilience on the same set of gear. That is harder to do now. Rogues, like everyone else, will be risking being very fragile if they go with all PvE gear for the damage. That isn't happening now because very few people have much PvP gear. Once players can survive a few hits, then players without resilience are going to go down quickly.

(Weapons are an exception to this, at least for now.)

Again, I'm not saying that burst damage won't still be too high. That is something we're looking at.

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If you can balance out damage to equal the time it takes a rogue to use his cooldowns correctly ( with prep, which every rogue has, which is 2 evasion/2 vanishes/1 cloak/2 sprints ), then I'll agree that rogues will be risking being very fragile with PvE gear.

Rogues were very fragile back in s3, any decent rogue with a good pve/pvp armor mix knew that getting caught in a stun would almost equal you falling over dead if you were getting focused ( the biggest counter to stopping a t3/s3 geared rogue, was another t3/s3 geared rogue ). I can recall many times of getting taken from 100% to 30ish% or lower within a stunlock from a rogue ( if I didnt trinket or use some sort of cooldown ). But for any other class, Its very difficult to stop a rogues assault ( with prep ) with CC, as well as being very difficult to focus.

Im not trying to single out rogues, but its the main class I have enough experience with to give my opinion on this subject. You aren't going to see rogues running around in full pvp gear ( unless they have no access to pve content, or no desire to pve ), as long as you continue to itemize season armor with such a difference in damage stats, then you will always see rogues trying to take advantage of their pve counterpart, and those players will always have a much bigger advantage.

This will be the same idea for DKs, since they are almost following the same concept.

Im not even talking about weapons, this is only armor.

EDIT: Id like to clarify, that a few PvE items were never a big concern in my opinion, rings/necks/cloaks/trinkets n such, Im talking about a considerable drop in resilience from having close to half or more then of what is expected in pvp.

Just add some kind of temporary buff that, reduces everyones damage and increases everyones hp by 30% while in arenas for like a month or two, until everyone that wants to pvp for serious get their stuff (resi gear) ready.

It is not very fair seeing really bad players running around in s5 shoulders simple because they play X burst comp.

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I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but no, this was not the intent.

It is hard to nail the sweet spot on Arena balance, and what that sweet spot is depends a lot on what role you play. At times players have felt that they couldn't prevent someone from healing, which turns the entire fight into mana draining, silence and crowd control, since nobody ever dies. Damage-dealers were frustrated because they felt like just beating on someone (which their entire spec may have been designed around) was ineffective. Currently, the opposite is true, where players can be beaten down very quickly and healers tend to wonder why they should even bother trying to heal.

Resilience will make a difference - remember that not only is PvP gear itemized for resilience, but it uses up points that would normally be spent on +dps. The defenses are not only higher, but the offenses are lower. Furthermore, once players can survive for a few seconds, it tends to force everyone to worry about defenses once again. Will resilience make enough of a difference? That is something we are discussing right now.

We hear and understand all of the concerns. I don't have any announcements to make of changes at this time, and honestly changes of the magnitude we're talking would not be the kind of thing I would just casually drop as an answer to a forum thread like this. But we do hear you.

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With this in mind, is there any concern on the development staff about classes that can survive while using PVE gear, or is this not a concern? By that I don't mean to beat around the bush -- is it intended that Rogues, Mages, Death Knights, Paladins, and even BM Hunters when paired with healing Paladins can be fine wearing full PvE gear? Note this was a problem in pre-WotLK arena as well.. is this an issue to the dev team?