World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> GC: Rumors

Reficulo

< Martha Stewart >

Boulderfist

0. GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 11:17:33 AM PST

Is there any validity to the rumor that damage will be higher in WOTLK than in TBC, even with Resilience, to give more inexperienced players a chance to accidentally win sometimes against better players?

Some sort of comment on this would be appreciated. I think the "zergy-ness" PVP right now, combined with Deadly gear from Vault, and the relative ease of starting PVE lend this rumor some surface-level credibility.

Thanks.

Skdall

< Resolute >

Eredar

1. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 11:19:49 AM PST

No. Damage was supposed to go down with new gear so that everyone stayed at lvl 70 and farmed sunwell for 5 more years.

Reficulo

< Martha Stewart >

Boulderfist

2. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 11:54:32 AM PST

Q u o t e:
No. Damage was supposed to go down with new gear so that everyone stayed at lvl 70 and farmed sunwell for 5 more years.

Ask a buddy to explain the interaction between damage, healing, and damage mitigation in PVP.

Essteedeez

< Progressive Neutrali… >

Boulderfist

3. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 12:08:16 PM PST

I doubt the damage is higher to even the playing field between good players and bad players and make pvp a dps race, I think somewhere GC said they thought healers were too strong but they didn't want to nerf healing done (so they increased damage).

As for the Vault gear, it does ruin some of the novelty of having the best PvP gear but it really won't make that person any better as a player and grant them the ability to jump to that 2k rating.

Irritability is my specialty.

Reficulo

< Martha Stewart >

Boulderfist

4. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 12:11:52 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I doubt the damage is higher to even the playing field between good players and bad players and make pvp a dps race, I think somewhere GC said they thought healers were too strong but they didn't want to nerf healing done (so they increased damage).

As for the Vault gear, it does ruin some of the novelty of having the best PvP gear but it really won't make that person any better as a player and grant them the ability to jump to that 2k rating.

What they both accomplish is making Arena more casual-friendly than it was before. They lowered required PR's. Added easily accessible gear, barely distinguishable from the top-tier.

Damage being out of control DOES allow bad players to beat good players when they couldn't before. Not all the time, but way more often than previously.

I think the concern merits a response.

Jynxar

< Templar Knights >

Mug'thol

5. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 12:14:51 PM PST

I really hope they nerf damage because right now arena is pathetic. It's a pure dps race that involves no cc (except stuns lol), no healing because it's completely worthless and impossible to outheal anything, it's impossible for healers to live long enough to heal, and you just rely on your rng crit to proc more then their rng crit. Arena right now is mindless, skilless and a miserable failure.

[ Post edited by Jynxar ]

Jynxar 80 Warlock
Bluecandle 70 Mage
Nightsprite 64 Priest

Essteedeez

< Progressive Neutrali… >

Boulderfist

6. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 12:20:37 PM PST

Q u o t e:
What they both accomplish is making Arena more casual-friendly than it was before. They lowered required PR's. Added easily accessible gear, barely distinguishable from the top-tier.

Damage being out of control DOES allow bad players to beat good players when they couldn't before. Not all the time, but way more often than previously.

I agree, but I would find it hard to believe that Blizzard intentionally increased damage for the purpose of allowing bad players to sometimes beat good players.

In all it should technically even out though, not only poor players benefit from higher burst, it also makes it easier for more skilled players to perform CC trains. Though I suppose in your position as a warlock burst is not really accessible.

Irritability is my specialty.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

7. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 02:55:48 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Is there any validity to the rumor that damage will be higher in WOTLK than in TBC, even with Resilience, to give more inexperienced players a chance to accidentally win sometimes against better players?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but no, this was not the intent.

It is hard to nail the sweet spot on Arena balance, and what that sweet spot is depends a lot on what role you play. At times players have felt that they couldn't prevent someone from healing, which turns the entire fight into mana draining, silence and crowd control, since nobody ever dies. Damage-dealers were frustrated because they felt like just beating on someone (which their entire spec may have been designed around) was ineffective. Currently, the opposite is true, where players can be beaten down very quickly and healers tend to wonder why they should even bother trying to heal.

Resilience will make a difference - remember that not only is PvP gear itemized for resilience, but it uses up points that would normally be spent on +dps. The defenses are not only higher, but the offenses are lower. Furthermore, once players can survive for a few seconds, it tends to force everyone to worry about defenses once again. Will resilience make enough of a difference? That is something we are discussing right now.

We hear and understand all of the concerns. I don't have any announcements to make of changes at this time, and honestly changes of the magnitude we're talking would not be the kind of thing I would just casually drop as an answer to a forum thread like this. But we do hear you.

Cinnamon

< Night Shift >

Destromath

9. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:02:08 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I really hope they nerf damage because right now arena is pathetic. It's a pure dps race that involves no cc (except stuns lol), no healing because it's completely worthless and impossible to outheal anything, it's impossible for healers to live long enough to heal, and you just rely on your rng crit to proc more then their rng crit. Arena right now is mindless, skilless and a miserable failure.

The other extreme was a problem too when lock + druid can faceroll to a victory just by merely outlasting someone. I know arena is going to head back towards this so i'm focusing more on my DK instead of my ret paladin because i don't have to worry about mana and I'll have the ability to bother a healer when burst is not as effective as it is now.

Ret Paladin - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Destromath&n=Cinnamon
Death Knight - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Destromath&n=Cinn%C3%A5mon

Graceland

< The Blood Legion >

Shandris

10. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:05:44 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Resilience will make a difference - remember that not only is PvP gear itemized for resilience, but it uses up points that would normally be spent on +dps. The defenses are not only higher, but the offenses are lower.

You are assuming that everyone will imminently switch to PvP gear as soon as it becomes available. I think exactly opposite will be true. I just don't see burst classes giving up burst for survivability.

PvP geared burst may be balanced against PvP geared healing... but is PvE geared burst balanced against PvP geared healing? I don't think so.

Key issue is that PvP gear is not good enough to survive PvE DPS.

Horrible

< Gypsy Cab Company >

Uther

11. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:08:38 PM PST

Q u o t e:

How long can we expect to continue to pay you to test this theory for you?

Please quit then, no one will miss you

And how can you not be having fun as a paladin right now.

whys yo face red man you wasted
horrible - protector of the weak

Zerlu

< Order of the Foaming… >

Hellscream

12. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:09:30 PM PST

Q u o t e:

You are assuming that everyone will imminently switch to PvP gear as soon as it becomes available. I think exactly opposite will be true. I just don't see burst classes giving up burst for survivability.

PvP geared burst may be balanced against PvP geared healing... but is PvE geared burst balanced against PvP geared healing? I don't think so.

Key issue is that PvP gear is not good enough to survive PvE DPS.

^This. I believe that things will remain this way for the duration of this season, however next season will reintroduce the guesswork of TBC PvP that often was a lot of the fun. In all brackets it wasn't unheard of to find someone mixing and matching the best of PvP and PvE gear, or just grabbing PvE gear in hopes to catch the other team off guard.

All of these are to be expected, and all are viable tactics. It then falls on the other team to determine who is going the route of the glass cannon and exploiting them.

Right now the best pvp gear is <<<<<<< the best pve gear.

Hopefully we will see some more equality in future seasons.

Kitrianne

< Lies and Deceit >

Draenor

13. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:15:40 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Resilience will make a difference - remember that not only is PvP gear itemized for resilience, but it uses up points that would normally be spent on +dps. The defenses are not only higher, but the offenses are lower. Furthermore, once players can survive for a few seconds, it tends to force everyone to worry about defenses once again.

Except rogues, who's defensive and control abilities are so strong they can afford to arena in PvE gear.

Yowza

< Dark Force >

Stormscale

14. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:24:01 PM PST

The response is appreciated GC, but one concern is that the classes doing all the burst are going to get all the gear first. The classes getting destroyed will still be left with less resilience.

Graceland

< The Blood Legion >

Shandris

15. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:25:06 PM PST

Rogues in arena, even is S4 where for about any other class PvP gear was the best gear available for PvP, were using mostly PvE gear. This is back in the days of 2h+ matches, when survivability and outlasting was how arena was played....

Why do you think that now, when hardly anyone bothers to heal in arena, rogues would want to self-nerf and use PvP gear?

Sylvanal

< Alloyed >

Executus

16. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:29:44 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Except rogues, who's defensive and control abilities are so strong they can afford to arena in PvE gear.

Correction: Except rogues, who get next to nothing from resil and therefore might as well PvP in PvE gear.

Hope that sudden death proc doesn't crit :D

sum rogs is 4 .................. /\/\(';..;')/\/\ OH GOD SPIDERS

Dreltath

< Xplicit Content >

Barthilas

17. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:32:47 PM PST

Actually some of the best gear for damage is the PVP gear. The damage reduction from wearing resilence gear for a rogue will be minimal if anything at all.

Rogues are being forced into PvP at the moment due to the subpar performance in PvE. Fix rogues in PvE you will have a large reduction in the number of rogues in PvP. I only go anywhere near the arenas and BG's because I can't get into the raids as the range DPS performs better.

I really suck at PvP and I can do do the 3 button thing with my eyes closed. Well except for the DK's I have not figured that out yet.

[ Post edited by Dreltath ]

Erdos

< The Q >

Lothar

18. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:42:27 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Resilience will make a difference - remember that not only is PvP gear itemized for resilience, but it uses up points that would normally be spent on +dps. The defenses are not only higher, but the offenses are lower. Furthermore, once players can survive for a few seconds, it tends to force everyone to worry about defenses once again. Will resilience make enough of a difference? That is something we are discussing right now.

So ... What are your plan for pets, which are not getting any resilience whatsoever according to you?

May the RNG be with you.

Brochai

< Con Carne >

Zul'jin

19. Re: GC: Rumors 12/27/2008 03:42:45 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Resilience will make a difference - remember that not only is PvP gear itemized for resilience, but it uses up points that would normally be spent on +dps. The defenses are not only higher, but the offenses are lower. Furthermore, once players can survive for a few seconds, it tends to force everyone to worry about defenses once again. Will resilience make enough of a difference? That is something we are discussing right now.

This makes me wonder something. I can't help but think that you would want players to have access to resilience. I have always thought the entry level pvp gear (currently the pvp blue set) should have ample quantities of resilience, and suffer offensive or healing stats as a consequence. Currently the blue set is mediocre for both offense/healing and resilience. Why exactly can't the current blue pvp set be made epic and fill that extra budget room with resilience? You could even shave off some of the "fun" stats too for all I care.

Entry level pvp gear should give you some degree of survivability, which it doesn't. Once you can survive for more than a few seconds you can actually begin working on better pvp gear such as the arena rewards.

As it stands now you need either arena gear, or raid gear to even try to compete. The blue pvp gear is obsolete before you even equip it.

[ Post edited by Brochai ]

Forum > CLASS ROLES > DAMAGE DEALING