Wow you were right GC, every time a blue posts the thread turns to crap. Ever notice how nobody pays attention to the other hundred of posters saying "Can't do that while stunned." But as soon as GC does it, it incites pages upon pages of nothingness.

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Q u o t e:
I think it's a reasonable discussion. I would love to see more intelligent thought about what the ideal Arena match should be without the specs with good CC just saying "more CC, less damage!" and the specs with lacking CC saying "more damage, less CC!" or "Gimmee more CC!"

Step outside your own spec, if you can, and try to picture what you think it *should* be like. Also consider the differences between the beginning and end of a season (especially one with a level jump like this one). As one poster said, if dps isn't overwhelming at this stage in the cycle, it is never going to be. Maybe that's okay and maybe it's not.

One thing I can tell you that we will almost certainly NOT do is give every spec cookie cuttered versions of the same abilities just to make sure that CC, draining, snaring etc. are all at parity. You may want to consider that as part of your answer.

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The idea that high-DPS specs should dominate now to ensure their viability later is a flawed one. They should scale with PvP gear just like the rest of us. This enables you to nerf their damage slightly, while ensuring that they will regain their damage at the same speed with which outlast specs gain survivability.

I don't know how it should be done, but letting imbalance exist now to ensure that future imbalance doesn't exist is, I repeat, a flawed idea.

I think it would be a good idea to see how this season pans out, in terms of burst damage. If res stops players from getting insta-gibed then that would make arena a little more fun for everyone. That would make it feel like there is skill involved. There should be a team effort to win, not just a zerg fest to blow up the nearest target. A zerg fest makes the game feel unskilled and not fun. I think this is why people are suggesting to tone down the damage so that way teams have to work together to get the win. It feels fun and skillful to disable one player, while killing another. Also, it is only fair for everyone that the person getting attacked has escape options and some counters if used right, ie short term survivability with out the help of a healer, or if the said class getting attacked is a DPS speced healer.

Also it is not fun for one class to be disabled the entire match with out options that work to escape or buy time or escape options that are easily countered by majority of the classes. This could be fixed by giving such classes or specs some escape options that function properly and are widely countered by most classes.

With the above said, it seems most classes have escape options, but the burst damage is prohibiting some classes utilizing those options to survive. We gotta see how res pans out and if the escape options work or not for said classes. If not some tweaks might be needed to ensure the escape options actually do work, and function as they are supposed to.

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Q u o t e:
As one poster said, if dps isn't overwhelming at this stage in the cycle, it is never going to be. Maybe that's okay and maybe it's not.

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If history is going to be a predictor of future happenings, then this won't be true at all, as burst DPS increased each season in TBC, because Resilience didn't keep up with the offensive stats available to players.

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Q u o t e:
I think it's a reasonable discussion. I would love to see more intelligent thought about what the ideal Arena match should be without the specs with good CC just saying "more CC, less damage!" and the specs with lacking CC saying "more damage, less CC!" or "Gimmee more CC!"

Step outside your own spec, if you can, and try to picture what you think it *should* be like. Also consider the differences between the beginning and end of a season (especially one with a level jump like this one). As one poster said, if dps isn't overwhelming at this stage in the cycle, it is never going to be. Maybe that's okay and maybe it's not.

One thing I can tell you that we will almost certainly NOT do is give every spec cookie cuttered versions of the same abilities just to make sure that CC, draining, snaring etc. are all at parity. You may want to consider that as part of your answer.

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The DPS specs however have all been (well, in the process of being) balanced to all do roughly the same DPS (there's still work to be done here of course) in a PvE setting. Now sure, in PvP there are some spells that you'd use in PvE rotations that you can't in PvP (sadly, some of the classes that weren't current top tier in PvE suffer here too by not being able to use some of their best spells reliably in PvP) but in general one would assume that the DPS of each class in PvP would again be relatively balanced if you discount those CC's, drainings, snarings etc.

Which means that what it comes down to is what non-DPS abilites the classes have because DPS alone can't be much of a determining factor.

So the game will become about which classes forms of CC or special abilities are better than others. At least once (hopefully) the burst DPS phase wears off.

What then exactly are the classes that are designed to have fewer forms of CC or special abilities but "more DPS focused" supposed to do?

Now it's possible that you believe you've got them balanced so that the classes with fewer CC's have access to more instant cast abilities that can't be avoided (dispelled for example) and thus actually can do more DPS in PvP than other classes even though they're close in PvE. If this is the ideal, then fine. Just make sure however that it's not relying upon things like DoTs which can be dispelled etc. for no penalty in your calculations for "can be cast while moving DPS".

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Q u o t e:


That is true, but we also are trying to prevent that from happening so much this time around. Later tiers of PvP gear have more survivability but don't inflate offensive stats nearly as much. This isn't as true of the weapons of course.

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Hopefully that will be enough, the problem will most likely be PvE gear though.

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Q u o t e:
I think it's a reasonable discussion. I would love to see more intelligent thought about what the ideal Arena match should be without the specs with good CC just saying "more CC, less damage!" and the specs with lacking CC saying "more damage, less CC!" or "Gimmee more CC!"

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It's not a matter of more of one and less of another. The issue is that right now there aren't a lot of options at all and your comments regarding chess matches, "devolving" and other such tidbits across posts don't paint a pretty picture for the future. It sounds dangerously like you guys want to water down Arena as badly as PvE has been.

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Q u o t e:
Step outside your own spec, if you can, and try to picture what you think it *should* be like.

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I thought previous seasons were nice, honestly. There was variety in compositions and tactics. You had rushdown teams, outlast teams, drain teams, control teams. Teams that exploited CC, teams that didn't use nearly as much, and teams in between.

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Q u o t e:
Also consider the differences between the beginning and end of a season (especially one with a level jump like this one). As one poster said, if dps isn't overwhelming at this stage in the cycle, it is never going to be. Maybe that's okay and maybe it's not.

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This is exactly what I was referring to in my first post addressed at you. It's like you guys weren't following the progression from S1 to S4. Overall damage output got BIGGER from 1 to 4. You guys seem to have this vision of past arena seasons as this playing field where every team somehow stacked low-damage, high CC classes and polymorphed each other to death.

The reality is that the damage of gib/cleave/whatever teams outpaced the resilience/stamina of other teams in later seasons, not the other way around as you have asserted. Maybe you guys read one too many forum posts complaining about CC and formed your views based on that, I don't know.

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Q u o t e:
One thing I can tell you that we will almost certainly NOT do is give every spec cookie cuttered versions of the same abilities just to make sure that CC, draining, snaring etc. are all at parity. You may want to consider that as part of your answer.

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I'm not entirely sure how to formulate an "answer" when the question at hand doesn't seem to reflect the reality of the situation. Perhaps - PERHAPS - gear will catch up and things won't be as bad. That's hard to believe though, looking at the current numbers. I absolutely dread an arena setting that gets watered down and eviscerated, devoid of variety, strategy or tactics.

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Q u o t e:


That is true, but we also are trying to prevent that from happening so much this time around. Later tiers of PvP gear have more survivability but don't inflate offensive stats nearly as much. This isn't as true of the weapons of course.

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This is an EXTREMELY worrisome statement. Weapons being the only thing outside your developmental scope for offense in arenas means there is the potential for a repeat of the later dominance on melee that occurred towards the end of S2 and game to a head at the middle of S3.

Casters do not nearly benefit from the kind of raw increase in damage a tier of dps on a weapon does for a melee player. I am extremely greatful that itemization has become so much more refined in wotlk (anyone would be lying if they said it wasn't significantly noticeable), but caster weapons versus melee weapons has always been worrisome to me.

Spell Power doesn't come close to matching increased damage on weapons. If you compared to S3 to S4 weapons, you got an increase of 19 spell damage. If weapons are to become a larger focus of the offensive stats for pvp, casters are going to need help down the road.

CC has it's place in arenas, it's an important aspect. However the amount of CC and especially RNG types of cc need toned down. Taking someone out of the game for extended periods of time isn't fun for anyone. I remember playing war/druid vs hunter/druid and being CC'd for the entire game as the warrior. You get two classes with spammable CC's together and they can link them to reset the others DR. This isn't skill. I've always believed that you should have to use your CC intelligently otherwise you won't have it when you need it, or it's costly to use.

Cyclone, cyclone, cyclone, root, root, root, scatter shot, freezing trap, repeat, and you can take a warrior out of the game almost permanently if they have no dispeller. Maybe all CC should share dr (in arenas) or something, it's just not fun playing an arena and losing rating because you couldn't control your character the entire game.

Snares and CC is PvP, or at least that part of PvP that is actually skill. Otherwise, you just have players standing toe to toe, and the one with the best class and most luck wins.

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Q u o t e:
I think it's a reasonable discussion. I would love to see more intelligent thought about what the ideal Arena match should be without the specs with good CC just saying "more CC, less damage!" and the specs with lacking CC saying "more damage, less CC!" or "Gimmee more CC!"

Step outside your own spec, if you can, and try to picture what you think it *should* be like. Also consider the differences between the beginning and end of a season (especially one with a level jump like this one). As one poster said, if dps isn't overwhelming at this stage in the cycle, it is never going to be. Maybe that's okay and maybe it's not.

One thing I can tell you that we will almost certainly NOT do is give every spec cookie cuttered versions of the same abilities just to make sure that CC, draining, snaring etc. are all at parity. You may want to consider that as part of your answer.

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I don't know about the perfect arena match, since that depends on which classes are involved, but in general I think there's not enough rock-paper-scissor right now in PvP. Some classes destroy everyone (DKs, Rogues) and some get destroyed by everyone (Warlocks, non-Prot Warriors). But on a different level the RPS is also missing. Each class should have a reasonable mix of mobility, CC, damage, interrupts, healing, and survivability. For example, I think the healing specs are intended to be roughly as follows:

Holy Paladin: High survivablity, high healing, moderate mobility, low CC, low damage, no interrupts.
Resto Druid: High mobility, high CC, moderate healing, moderate survivability, low damage, no interrupts.
Disc Priest: Moderate healing, moderate CC, moderate damage, moderate survivability, low mobility (can't remove poisons or shift etc), no interrupts.
Resto Shaman: High survivability, high interrupts, moderate healing, low mobility, moderate CC, moderate damage.

Unfortunately some specs are just lacking right now, for example:

Arms Warrior - Low survivability, moderate damage, low mobility, no healing, low CC, moderate interupts.
Affliction Warlock - Low survivability, moderate damage, low mobility, no healing, moderate CC, moderate interrupts.

And others are too strong:

Unholy DK: High survivability, high damage, moderate mobility, no healing, moderate CC, high interrupts.
Arcane mage: Moderate survivability, high damage, high mobility, no healing, moderate CC, high interrupts (was going to say moderate, but the 8s silence from Imp CS is...long).
Assassination Rogue: Moderate survivability, high damage, high mobility, no healing, high CC, high interrupts.
Ret Paladin: High survivability, high damage, high mobility, moderate healing, low CC, no interrupts.
Balance Druid: Moderate survivability, high damage, high mobility, moderate healing, high CC, no interrupts.

This isn't especially thought out so maybe I missed a category or two should be grouped or whatever but you get the idea. Classes that have low mobility should, for example, have high damage and survivability. Classes that have high mobility and damage should have low survivability. Classes that have high survivability and CC should have low-moderate damage. Etc.

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Q u o t e:


Rogues have an MS poison.
Hunters have an MS type shot.
Warriors have MS.

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The only "new" one is aimed shot, and meh, the original version was obsolete and people QQ'd about warriors.

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Q u o t e:

Deathknights can remove hots.
Hunters can remove hots.

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In different manners

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Q u o t e:

Warriors can stun
Rogues can stun 3 ways
Mages have the chance to stun.
BM hunters can stun.
Pallies can stun 2 ways.
Druids can stun 2 ways.

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Many classes can apply the same mechanic through different ways, note that there are 10 classes that all have an ability that deals direct damage... also I forgot what the 3rd rogue stun move was?

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Q u o t e:

Warlocks can fear.
Priests can fear.
Hunters can fear druids.

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see above

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Q u o t e:

Should I go on about the similar abilities given out to each class in various trees or do you get the point that you keep making comments that don't even make any sense?

The fact that you make the comment "cannot do that while stunned" really paints the picture as to why rogues are in the current state they have been in since bc.

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Yep, stuns suck. but his comments don't necessarily make no sense simply because there are similar mechanics that different classes can apply in different manners.

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Q u o t e:


That is true, but we also are trying to prevent that from happening so much this time around. Later tiers of PvP gear have more survivability but don't inflate offensive stats nearly as much. This isn't as true of the weapons of course.

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Considering how many times I seen players can 3 shot me in PVP gear no offense but PVP gear seem to have some Survivablity in PVE then in PVP stat wise.