World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Scary Trend in Developer Mentality

Zandrae

< Underdogs >

Argent Dawn

40. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 06:53:18 PM PST

I ran a late night raiding guild (midnight to whenever we feel like stopping) for a while during BC.

I was lucky enough to find one on the server I'm on now.

Cowardice

< Boomstick >

Chromaggus

41. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 06:57:55 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Ya.. ok.. try 4 years on a 2:30 - 11:00 p.m. shift + family. I worked my ass off to get my characters to where they are a few hours at a time. Even aussie guilds raids are over when i get on. I PUGed my ass off to get anything done including PUG raids. I know what the other classes can do.

I think Paladin are a great class and they have a lot going for them. I Don't think that just because paladin have strong single target healing they should get the shaft on the other aspects of healing. Not a single class would get hurt if paladin got a decent HoT or AE heal since nobody has trouble with 5 mans and Raiders would naturally play to the classes individual strengths.

I also want to see Holy paladin actually being acceptable in 2's and 3's in arena also.

Acceptable?

http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/team/2/all/rogue/all/all/ - In this link you can peruse a list of the highest rated 2v2 teams. Paladins are much more than acceptable, they're damn popular. They also have two (2!) competitive PVP viable specs, although the top teams appear to be using holy.

Raspberyl

< Eos >

Arygos

42. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 06:59:58 PM PST

The mentality is fine as far as the examples given goes. Retribution was (and still is and yes, DK's too,) overpowered in the aspects that it's talents crutched it up. Infinite mana, psychotic damage, psychotic utility and Holy potency heals on a DPS spec are NOT #!**ing fine even if Holy didn't exist.

And no, Holy didn't suck, and Holy doesn't suck. Beta players were largely dumbasses who did nothing but cry. Almost nobody actually extensively tested content. As a Holy Paladin poster in beta, I have no problem saying almost every argument put forth by that community was brain dead. "LOLZ! BoL IS USELEZZ!" Jesus Christ...

The only thing people were right about during beta was PvP damage. As it was too high even then when everyone had 900 resil and %**# blue weapons.

[ Post edited by Raspberyl ]

A zombie bit me. I reported him.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Arygos&n=Vesper

Chanamel

< Symbiotic >

Chromaggus

43. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 07:02:23 PM PST

Well, it's wonderful that you guys are super successful in your lives compared to your perceptions of those who are more accomplished than you in this video game.

However, it's all immaterial to the discussion at hand.

That is, Paladins could not have had their Holy tree buffed instead of Ret nerfed because Holy was already balanced (or so I claim). Unlike the people multiple blues here, I have the experience to know that Shaman and Priests cannot compete with us at tank healing (not to say they can't successfully tank heal, but the wont have near the sustained fast, heavy hitting HpS of a Paladin which is centric to successful tank healing).

Gwayne

< The Insanity >

Moonrunner

44. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 07:23:37 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Acceptable?

http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/team/2/all/rogue/all/all/ - In this link you can peruse a list of the highest rated 2v2 teams. Paladins are much more than acceptable, they're damn popular. They also have two (2!) competitive PVP viable specs, although the top teams appear to be using holy.

This is due to the current season being all about DPS and paladin class being very survivable. Wait to see what the season is like towards the end when people start getting better gear and resil. Burst DPS will shrink and Holy paladin will be shelved for other healing classes who have more healing options. New team comps will be more viable.

The most popular settup in 2's is Paladin/DK. 2 very tough classes with good DPS. I am seeing a trend here. Do you?

It took Blizzard 4 arena seasons and several MLG tourneys to get Holy paladin some sort of instant heal mechanic and a greatly reduced HS cooldown. Ret got Major fixes but will be nerfed by resil and DK's are just over the top and will probably see some nerfs along with reduced damage due to resil also.

Paladin are doing ok in arena now. I dont think they will continue to do so. I will personally be delightfully suprised to see any paladin in the MLG's or in the later seasons.

Olivia Munn FTW

Chanamel

< Symbiotic >

Chromaggus

45. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 07:34:14 PM PST

Q u o t e:

This is due to the current season being all about DPS and paladin class being very survivable. Wait to see what the season is like towards the end when people start getting better gear and resil. Burst DPS will shrink and Holy paladin will be shelved for other healing classes who have more healing options. New team comps will be more viable.

The most popular settup in 2's is Paladin/DK. 2 very tough classes with good DPS. I am seeing a trend here. Do you?

1) DK is OP. Great at peeling, amazing survivability.

2) "when people start getting better gear ... Burst DPS will shrink". Things might be slightly more survivable when people load up on their starter 80 PvP gear but as soon as people get T8-T9 level raid/badge/PvP damage weapons/armor, burst might be even worse than it currently is. PvP is clearly broken.

Dedric

< Mercenaries >

Kargath

46. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 07:37:59 PM PST

It's apparent now from the near worthless PvP system that Blizzard had a "nerf a healer instead of buffing another" mentality while they had a "buff other dps instead of nerfing one" mentality all throughout the development of WotLK. Pretty much the only exception to this rule is 3.0.8 BM hunters who are getting dps nerfs in PvE, but at the same time 4-6 other classes/specs are getting dps increases.

[ Post edited by Dedric ]

Chanamel

< Symbiotic >

Chromaggus

47. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 08:03:19 PM PST

Q u o t e:
It's apparent now from the near worthless PvP system that Blizzard had a "nerf a healer instead of buffing another" mentality while they had a "buff other dps instead of nerfing one" mentality all throughout the development of WotLK. Pretty much the only exception to this rule is 3.0.8 BM hunters who are getting dps nerfs in PvE, but at the same time 4-6 other classes/specs are getting dps increases.

No, all healers are scaling well.

The problem is that hit points have doubled while damage has quadrupled compared to early BC. That is, the problem is that there is too much damage relative to people's health pools. Things are unhealable because of this, not because of a lack of healing power.

Paladins do relatively well simply because bubbles are amazing in 30s matches.

Cowardice

< Boomstick >

Chromaggus

48. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 08:58:55 PM PST

Q u o t e:

This is due to the current season being all about DPS and paladin class being very survivable. Wait to see what the season is like towards the end when people start getting better gear and resil. Burst DPS will shrink and Holy paladin will be shelved for other healing classes who have more healing options. New team comps will be more viable.

The most popular settup in 2's is Paladin/DK. 2 very tough classes with good DPS. I am seeing a trend here. Do you?

It took Blizzard 4 arena seasons and several MLG tourneys to get Holy paladin some sort of instant heal mechanic and a greatly reduced HS cooldown. Ret got Major fixes but will be nerfed by resil and DK's are just over the top and will probably see some nerfs along with reduced damage due to resil also.

Paladin are doing ok in arena now. I dont think they will continue to do so. I will personally be delightfully suprised to see any paladin in the MLG's or in the later seasons.

I don't care. You said paladins are not acceptable in arena, especially 2v2 and 3v3 brackets. You were very mistaken, and citing the reasons why doesn't change that.

Perb

< The Unknowns >

Gorefiend

49. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 09:34:41 PM PST

Nerfing good things so bad things will look better is not what players want.

Teekee

Blackhand

50. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 09:41:49 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Nerfing good things so bad things will look better is not what players want.

]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Frigginohpee

Kel'Thuzad

51. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/30/2008 09:42:57 PM PST

Q u o t e:
That is, Paladins could not have had their Holy tree buffed instead of Ret nerfed because Holy was already balanced (or so I claim). Unlike the people multiple blues here, I have the experience to know that Shaman and Priests cannot compete with us at tank healing (not to say they can't successfully tank heal, but the wont have near the sustained fast, heavy hitting HpS of a Paladin which is centric to successful tank healing).

this is the real problem, though you understated it.

i had a big long post typed up, but seeing as the wow forums are absolute shit and i got logged out and had my post deleted, i'm just going to summarize it:

the other healers can single target heal. they're not as good as paladins, but they're passable.

paladins can't raid heal. period.

now, the next question is, is "raid healing ability" needed for paladins? i would say yes, if we're sticking to the player-not-the-class philosophy. others would say no, however. fine. let's remove healing wave and gheal. paladins don't need "raid healing" to do their job, you don't need "single target healing" to do yours.

of course, that would be ludicrous... but that's my point.

Chanamel

< Symbiotic >

Chromaggus

52. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/31/2008 02:47:30 AM PST

Q u o t e:
paladins can't raid heal. period.

now, the next question is, is "raid healing ability" needed for paladins? i would say yes, if we're sticking to the player-not-the-class philosophy. others would say no, however. fine. let's remove healing wave and gheal. paladins don't need "raid healing" to do their job, you don't need "single target healing" to do yours.

of course, that would be ludicrous... but that's my point.

Actually, they can. Just because you can't tank heal with CoH doesn't mean you can't raid heal with Holy Light. If people actually saw a good Paladin raid healing, they'd see Paladins aren't very far behind at all.

[ Post edited by Chanamel ]

Frigginohpee

Kel'Thuzad

53. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/31/2008 01:01:01 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Actually, they can. Just because you can't tank heal with CoH doesn't mean you can't raid heal with Holy Light. If people actually saw a good Paladin raid healing, they'd see Paladins aren't very far behind at all.

...... this is mind blowing.

...... am i being punk'd? where's ashton?

Breaklance

< Censored >

Blackwing Lair

55. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/31/2008 04:46:43 PM PST

They nerfed ret healing talents(lolwut?) because the subpar paladin healing talents were giving paladins comparable hps to other healers. I' sure this is the response a blue would give. It always is. Thats the trend i notice most

Random Forum Poster:

I have graphs, tables, spreadsheets, actual in game combat logs, that all prove this [class/skill] does not produce the same numbers(or does too much) as other classes do. [Goes on to explain, in great detail, all the steps he did to get the numbers, and the comparisons]

Q u o t e:
Blue Poster:

We have numbers that say otherwise.

Random Forum Troll:

What are these numbers!? Where do you get them? the sky?

Q u o t e:
Weeks later, Blue Poster

We're buffing/nerfing [class/skill] because their numbers compared to other classes was not comparable.

Most of the time the last step doesn't happen. Hate to throw a bone out to shamans, but for weeks in Beta and into launch "elemental shamans dont scale the same way, our talents are static and won't let us do nearly as much dps as other classes." And for weeks it was, "our numbers say otherwise" and only a short while ago they announced a 20% dps buff for elementals. Thats a pretty huge buff.

Its been like that for a lot of other situations. Heres a shocking trend: developers dragging their heals on issues they've been proven wrong on, and in multiple times. WTB reactive changes instead of letting situations digress to a point where people think broken stats/abilities are meant to be that way.

I remember: The Beets - Killer Tofu Tour

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

56. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/31/2008 05:15:19 PM PST

Players tend to think of things in terms of whether their class got buffs or nerfs. We tend to think of the overall balance of the game.

The metaphor that gets (over) used a lot is the wobbly chair -- you can cut one leg off or try and extend the other three. We would always prefer to buff rather than nerf, because frankly it's more fun. It generates goodwill and makes players excited about playing. But buffing isn't always the answer. Often a nerf involves far fewer changes the game as a whole. Because testing time is usually our limiting factor for releasing changes, we prefer to change as little as possible.

It's impossible to measure things, especially healing, in terms this simply, but imagine your class can heal 5000 health per second and the other specs can heal 4000 health per sec. Sure we can buff the other three because that's more fun than nerfing you, right? But it might also mean that PvE fights are too easy and PvP damage is too trivial (yes I realize that is an amusing thing to say right now while so many people are concerned about burst damage). Just buffing your spells affects spell balance too -- when you don't care about efficiency because even your light healing spells heal for a lot, then suddenly your toolbox looks pretty shallow, and that Spirit and mp5 on your gear starts to look like a wasted stat.

TLDR version: we prefer to buff when we can, but nerfing is typically far less risky in terms of the amount of data changed.

Ceridwyn

< SPQR >

Kargath

57. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/31/2008 05:21:07 PM PST

GC, why can't you say that you aren't going to buff holy dps past the paltry amount currently in ptr? Just say it.

I think healing for holy pally is fine, sorry for the short post (waiting for a release on new years eve = makes me terse lol). I'm not sure why pallys expect to be OMG godly healers over others, we all have our strength and weakness and I think we're pretty balanced vs. other healers now.

However I think that our DPS is definitely lacking, and the 25% increase to judgement damage is a joke. I'm not complaining because I can solo quests and farm endlessly because I have 0 downtime, it just makes PvP extremely hard in some situations (where that little extra dps would be really valuable) but if that is SUPPOSED to be a weakness of the holy pally class, I wish you would just say it :)

[ Post edited by Ceridwyn ]

Brillak

< Unknown >

Andorhal

58. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/31/2008 05:28:10 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Players tend to think of things in terms of whether their class got buffs or nerfs. We tend to think of the overall balance of the game.

The metaphor that gets (over) used a lot is the wobbly chair -- you can cut one leg off or try and extend the other three. We would always prefer to buff rather than nerf, because frankly it's more fun. It generates goodwill and makes players excited about playing. But buffing isn't always the answer. Often a nerf involves far fewer changes the game as a whole. Because testing time is usually our limiting factor for releasing changes, we prefer to change as little as possible.

It's impossible to measure things, especially healing, in terms this simply, but imagine your class can heal 5000 health per second and the other specs can heal 4000 health per sec. Sure we can buff the other three because that's more fun than nerfing you, right? But it might also mean that PvE fights are too easy and PvP damage is too trivial (yes I realize that is an amusing thing to say right now while so many people are concerned about burst damage). Just buffing your spells affects spell balance too -- when you don't care about efficiency because even your light healing spells heal for a lot, then suddenly your toolbox looks pretty shallow, and that Spirit and mp5 on your gear starts to look like a wasted stat.

TLDR version: we prefer to buff when we can, but nerfing is typically far less risky in terms of the amount of data changed.

problem is GC you keep on saying that cutting one leg of the chair is better then fixing all three. but in the end you've created a chair that is inches off the ground and uncomfortable..... sometimes it's better to just fix all three legs while you can then break the entire chair.

anyways i don't think this is asking the world..... after all you made tanking fun. are you saying you can't? or you won't at this point?

^(o.o^) - - - - - - <(^.^<)
*POOF* dispersion <(o.o<)?
(###) <(-.-<)
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Foogacity

< Demise >

Burning Blade

59. Re: Scary Trend in Developer Mentality 12/31/2008 05:33:48 PM PST

Q u o t e:
but imagine your class can heal 5000 health per second and the other specs can heal 4000 health per sec.

Ya, imagination.... now halve that from an outdated game mechanic like 50% healing reduction, then halve it again, but then increase DPS to these same levels, what do you get?

PVP today.

[ Post edited by Foogacity ]

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING