Q u o t e: Be careful with Patchwerk though. It's an ideal situation for rogues, but it's an ideal situation for any dps that doesn't have to move or run around. You need to look at the LK equivalent of Void Reaver (and I'm not sure there is one -- Grobbulus maybe) where the ranged dps have to move and the melee can more or less go crazy. Another problem with Patch is that the fights are short. You can burn all your cooldowns and have them active for a decent percentage of that fight. Rogues typically need to lay down a groundwork before they really start pumping out the dps, and they really start to shine in situations where the casters have to start worrying about mana.
Isn't that kind of a political answer. Oh no, you are looking at the wrong thing you should be measuring it against this.
I guess changing what people measure dps up against is an easy way of ignoring and issue. Rogues just don't have any fight in Naxx that they are good at, so thats why they are behind other classes.
1. Re: Patchwerk = bad? 12/23/2008 11:06:42 AM PST
Q u o t e:
Isn't that kind of a political answer. Oh no, you are looking at the wrong thing you should be measuring it against this.
I guess changing what people measure dps up against is an easy way of ignoring and issue. Rogues just don't have any fight in Naxx that they are good at, so thats why they are behind other classes.
Patchwerk undermines the creativity put into PvE encounters. If every encounter was a Patchwerk-type encounter the game would be intensely boring. And what he is saying is:
"Yes, Patchwerk is the best DPS-Meter fight in the game. But it's also the only encounter of it's type in current raiding so the numbers are going to be skewed a bit. Be aware of this because the numbers will fluctuate from Patchwerk to Grobbulus to Maexxna to Sapphiron."
2. Re: Patchwerk = bad? 12/23/2008 11:08:33 AM PST
Did you read his comment? There are plenty of fights in Naxx Rogues are good at. There are almost no fights in all of Naxx that aren't friendly to melee or are biased to casters with only like 1 or 2 exceptions (Saph and Heigen?).
What he said is right and has been said countless times before by players. Looking at the values on patchwerk are a waste of time because a lot of the WWS reports that are quoted and jacked off to are biased toward the classes with insanely high burst damage.
Look at the Hunters for example. Readiness + TBW on Patchwerk is blatantaly overpowered. You probably don't know how overpowered it is though until you look at the parses. A big difference in a Patchwerk kill that kills him moments before enrage and a Patchwerk kill that only lasts 2mins and the Hunter had TBW up for 1/4 of that.
5. Re: Patchwerk = bad? 12/23/2008 11:14:27 AM PST
Q u o t e: Show me a non - hat speced rogue doing top damage on any fight.
We can't; the other specs suck because to buff Rogue PvE damage without throwing melee scaling factors out on it's ear and/or making their burst even stronger in PvP is a difficult thing to do. That doesn't mean you should always base DPS parses on Patchwerk.
Ghostcrawler
Blizzard Poster
8. Re: Patchwerk = bad? 12/23/2008 11:19:05 AM PST
I think players have answered this point well.
From our perspective, we don't want to tell you how much dps you should be doing and don't want to make it too easy for you to figure out how much dps you can do. It depends greatly on situation to situation, and on your gear, skill and the comp of your group.
I also think it takes a little of the fun out of the game if the numbers are posted and made official for everyone to see. The discovery aspect adds a lot of depth to the game.
Don't ask us what your Xmas presents are. Go open them.
13. Re: Patchwerk = bad? 12/23/2008 11:22:16 AM PST
Q u o t e: I think players have answered this point well.
From our perspective, we don't want to tell you how much dps you should be doing and don't want to make it too easy for you to figure out how much dps you can do. It depends greatly on situation to situation, and on your gear, skill and the comp of your group.
I also think it takes a little of the fun out of the game if the numbers are posted and made official for everyone to see. The discovery aspect adds a lot of depth to the game.
Don't ask us what your Xmas presents are. Go open them.
We opened them...all the boxes are empty.
There is no raid fight in Xpac that fulfills the rogue ideal better than this one. Sorry. You didn't make a similar fight that is long enough to let rogues "warm up" and casters to go oom. Maybe next Xmas I guess.
15. Re: Patchwerk = bad? 12/23/2008 11:23:54 AM PST
So what happens if rogues are behind on every fight. Plus they are already at a disadvantage of being a melee class. They are horrible at any thing other then single target fights. What happens is that rogues are now that token class that gets brought to the raid because someone needs to be there to take the loot.
I guess we can only hope that Ulduar is some sort of instance that has a bunch of Void Reaver fights where we will probably get beat by Fury warriors anyways.
16. Re: Patchwerk = bad? 12/23/2008 11:23:57 AM PST
Q u o t e:
We opened them...all the boxes are empty.
There is no raid fight in Xpac that fulfills the rogue ideal better than this one. Sorry. You didn't make a similar fight that is long enough to let rogues "warm up" and casters to go oom. Maybe next Xmas I guess.
Was there a fight in Karazhan that allowed Rogues the opportunity to truly shine?
18. Re: Patchwerk = bad? 12/23/2008 11:25:52 AM PST
Q u o t e: I think players have answered this point well.
From our perspective, we don't want to tell you how much dps you should be doing and don't want to make it too easy for you to figure out how much dps you can do. It depends greatly on situation to situation, and on your gear, skill and the comp of your group.
I also think it takes a little of the fun out of the game if the numbers are posted and made official for everyone to see. The discovery aspect adds a lot of depth to the game.
Don't ask us what your Xmas presents are. Go open them.
The only "fun" it takes out of the game for a bad player to see what a Hunter can truly do, is perhaps make that player realize he's bad.
And it doesn't rely on comp of group. That's entirely what Wrath wanted to remove. Except for HaT Rogues, but that's not even worth mentioning really.
