World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> WTB Blue Responses

Ihealedonu

Staghelm

0. WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:08:01 AM PST

WTB Blue Responses on several floating Rogue issues that have only been "acknowledged" since beta.

A majority of rogues feel like they were "short changed" in the expansion. Besides a few lackluster 51 point talents, rogues didn't get much "new". Combat plays very close to it did before, and mutilate doesn't seem very different. Is blizzard working and actually expecting to give us anything?

I'll admit, dps is very well balanced between all the "pure" dps players, and in several ways this is a very good thing (Bring the player not the class). But, when looking at a pool of all skilled players, very few guilds will grab an equal or even slightly more skilled rogue/melee over a ranged that is pulling the same DPS, simply because of melee disadvantage.

The new FoK change is great, but it really doesn't address the issue. Rogue aoe is lackluster because they are supposed to shine on bosses/single targets. Just making us go from 15th on trash to 10th really isn't going to make much of a difference in the long haul.

Along with the statement of 51 point talents, you specifically said that the entire Assassination tree is basically built for Hunger for Blood, and a different talent would need an entire tree rehaul. Most rogues are very unhappy with Hunger for Blood, simply because it's another "thing we have to keep up". The "fun" of it was quickly taken away after most of the needed nerfs. However, several other classes received new 51 point talents when their current ones just didn't work. Is blizzard willing to actually put in the work to do it correctly and change around a few of our 51point talents and trees? Or must we just wait for the next expansion and hope you do it then?

Few Blue responses and even fewer mention of rogues in the patch notes makes it very disheartening to keep at the rogue character I love to raid with.

Fannta

Gorgonnash

1. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:11:40 AM PST

Q u o t e:
WTB Blue Responses on several floating Rogue issues that have only been "acknowledged" since beta.

A majority of rogues feel like they were "short changed" in the expansion. Besides a few lackluster 51 point talents, rogues didn't get much "new". Combat plays very close to it did before, and mutilate doesn't seem very different. Is blizzard working and actually expecting to give us anything?

I'll admit, dps is very well balanced between all the "pure" dps players, and in several ways this is a very good thing (Bring the player not the class). But, when looking at a pool of all skilled players, very few guilds will grab an equal or even slightly more skilled rogue/melee over a ranged that is pulling the same DPS, simply because of melee disadvantage.

The new FoK change is great, but it really doesn't address the issue. Rogue aoe is lackluster because they are supposed to shine on bosses/single targets. Just making us go from 15th on trash to 10th really isn't going to make much of a difference in the long haul.

Along with the statement of 51 point talents, you specifically said that the entire Assassination tree is basically built for Hunger for Blood, and a different talent would need an entire tree rehaul. Most rogues are very unhappy with Hunger for Blood, simply because it's another "thing we have to keep up". The "fun" of it was quickly taken away after most of the needed nerfs. However, several other classes received new 51 point talents when their current ones just didn't work. Is blizzard willing to actually put in the work to do it correctly and change around a few of our 51point talents and trees? Or must we just wait for the next expansion and hope you do it then?

Few Blue responses and even fewer mention of rogues in the patch notes makes it very disheartening to keep at the rogue character I love to raid with.

Go to search, type HAT, 8 days ago gc stated where they are taking rogues

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

2. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:31:06 AM PST

Q u o t e:
A majority of rogues feel like they were "short changed" in the expansion. Besides a few lackluster 51 point talents, rogues didn't get much "new". Combat plays very close to it did before, and mutilate doesn't seem very different. Is blizzard working and actually expecting to give us anything?

The "lackluster talent" thing is something almost every spec throws around. In almost every case, we weren't trying to make the 51 point talent the best in the tree and we weren't trying to make the 51 something you use as part of your standard rotation.

As I have said before, what we wanted to do with rogues in BC included getting poisons back into the game, making sap a more useful CC, and getting rogues to pay a little more attention to the rest of the group (with things like Tricks).

Q u o t e:
I'll admit, dps is very well balanced between all the "pure" dps players, and in several ways this is a very good thing (Bring the player not the class). But, when looking at a pool of all skilled players, very few guilds will grab an equal or even slightly more skilled rogue/melee over a ranged that is pulling the same DPS, simply because of melee disadvantage.

I think you get into dangerous territory with the "very few guilds" argument. Unless you have really done a comprehensive review of most guilds, you can't really say that, and even then you would need to know a lot about the guilds and players in question.

I do think there is a melee disadvantage, and I do think rogues are probably not quite doing the damage they should in ideal situations.

Be careful with Patchwerk though. It's an ideal situation for rogues, but it's an ideal situation for any dps that doesn't have to move or run around. You need to look at the LK equivalent of Void Reaver (and I'm not sure there is one -- Grobbulus maybe) where the ranged dps have to move and the melee can more or less go crazy. Another problem with Patch is that the fights are short. You can burn all your cooldowns and have them active for a decent percentage of that fight. Rogues typically need to lay down a groundwork before they really start pumping out the dps, and they really start to shine in situations where the casters have to start worrying about mana.

We knew this was the risk with introducing the combat dummies, but some players do have the tendency to generate numbers from those tests and then expect to see that dps in a raid. Usually encounters are much more complex than that.

Q u o t e:
The new FoK change is great, but it really doesn't address the issue. Rogue aoe is lackluster because they are supposed to shine on bosses/single targets. Just making us go from 15th on trash to 10th really isn't going to make much of a difference in the long haul.

We aren't trying to turn rogues into an AE class. We just want them to have something to do in AE situations besides making Heavy Borean Leather. The new Fan works pretty well for that.

We do think rogues might be a little low on single-target bosses, but we're also cognizant of the fact that they tend to do much better with good gear and good buffs. We have some plans in mind.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

3. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:31:16 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Along with the statement of 51 point talents, you specifically said that the entire Assassination tree is basically built for Hunger for Blood, and a different talent would need an entire tree rehaul. Most rogues are very unhappy with Hunger for Blood, simply because it's another "thing we have to keep up". The "fun" of it was quickly taken away after most of the needed nerfs. However, several other classes received new 51 point talents when their current ones just didn't work. Is blizzard willing to actually put in the work to do it correctly and change around a few of our 51point talents and trees? Or must we just wait for the next expansion and hope you do it then?

I think you are expecting more out of the 51-point talents than we are. The death knight may be the best example. They are useful 51 pointers, but none feel mandatory and the trees aren't balanced completely around them. Unholy Blight is probably the closest to feeling necessary, but really only for tanks.

We do still think that those comments about Hunger for Blood still stand. However, it's not a simple fix because Assassination can do very high (if not the highest) dps (in a world without HaT bugs), but only for a skilled player who invests a lot of time into it and only on long fights. That means to juice up the tree in some places we'd need to nerf it in others in order to avoid Assassination becoming THE PvE spec. It is something we're working on -- just too early for any announcements.

Q u o t e:
Few Blue responses and even fewer mention of rogues in the patch notes makes it very disheartening to keep at the rogue character I love to raid with.

Please don't evaluate how much we care about or are working on a class based on the number of blue responses. My words are over-analyzed enough. If you try to do a meta-analysis based on the kinds of things I respond to you're going to end up making me have to be so careful about how and when I post that I'll end up sounding more like a politico than I already do. :)

Korrgash

< Out of Ctrl >

Alleria

4. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:34:29 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I think you get into dangerous territory with the "very few guilds" argument. Unless you have really done a comprehensive review of most guilds, you can't really say that, and even then you would need to know a lot about the guilds and players in question.

GC crits Nub for 10,000.
Nub dies.
Peasants rejoice.

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
~ Albert Einstein

Ghoul

< Vendor >

Cairne

5. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:37:25 AM PST

Another ZomGwthBuffzmyclassplz dealt with.

Attican

< on Farm >

Laughing Skull

6. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:40:05 AM PST

Why does GC waste his times with threads that have asked him questions he's already addressed?

Loudnoises

< Civilian >

Bonechewer

7. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:40:24 AM PST

Something I think everyone would like to see is the return of the weekly hotfix thread that was posted on the general boards for a while.

Turning all against the one is an art that’s hard to teach
Another clever word sets off an unsuspecting herd
And as you step back into line a mob jumps to their feet

Hellborfan

< The Blacklist >

Silver Hand

9. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:42:09 AM PST

We do still think that those comments about Hunger for Blood still stand. However, it's not a simple fix because Assassination can do very high (if not the highest) dps (in a world without HaT bugs), but only for a skilled player who invests a lot of time into it and only on long fights. That means to juice up the tree in some places we'd need to nerf it in others in order to avoid Assassination becoming THE PvE spec. It is something we're working on -- just too early for any announcements.

My only problem with this statement GC is that Assassination is THE PvE spec, not including bugged HaT.

[ Post edited by Hellborfan ]

Silverline

< Mutiny >

Akama

10. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:43:40 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Please don't evaluate how much we care about or are working on a class based on the number of blue responses. My words are over-analyzed enough. If you try to do a meta-analysis based on the kinds of things I respond to you're going to end up making me have to be so careful about how and when I post that I'll end up sounding more like a politico than I already do. :)

GC, to coin a term used during the 60's, "Do your own thing". Don't worry about the whiners who complain if they're class isn't getting constant attention. You're not going to make those people happy unless you constantly buff their class. There are many, many people who appreciate your frank and open talks with us. Please go on as you wish.

Who watches the watchmen?

Bastion

< Fervor >

Anetheron

11. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:43:49 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Why does GC waste his times with threads that have asked him questions he's already addressed?

Considering there have been thousands of threads about low rogue PvE dps since Beta, and this is the first time rogues have even seen a moderately luke-warm response acknowledging "single target dps may be a little low", I'll say it was not, ever, addressed.

Sileonex

Icecrown

12. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:46:22 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I think you are expecting more out of the 51-point talents than we are. The death knight may be the best example. They are useful 51 pointers, but none feel mandatory and the trees aren't balanced completely around them. Unholy Blight is probably the closest to feeling necessary, but really only for tanks.

We do still think that those comments about Hunger for Blood still stand. However, it's not a simple fix because Assassination can do very high (if not the highest) dps (in a world without HaT bugs), but only for a skilled player who invests a lot of time into it and only on long fights. That means to juice up the tree in some places we'd need to nerf it in others in order to avoid Assassination becoming THE PvE spec. It is something we're working on -- just too early for any announcements.

I can't speak for anyone other than myself but since you brought up DK 51-pointers, I thought I'd take the opportunity to say something. For me, DRW is what I would want from a 51-pt talent. It's a useful ability that gives you another cooldown to pop for that nice extra burst of damage at a needed time. Getting a constant 9% damage increase is nothing to scoff at in the least but it's not fun to keep pushing the button every 25-28 seconds to keep it up. DRW is fun because you see an appreciable gain and in addition you see another weapon flying around, doing your attacks. It's fun in effect and in visual design. HfB is neither; however, the damage increase is very good so it becomes part of your rotation and a necessity to keep up.

"Really nothing short of 'here is how we are buffing you' will measurably decrease the number of posts on a topic. :)" - GC

Just

< Vagrant >

Exodar

13. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:46:30 AM PST

Q u o t e:

GC crits Nub for 9,000 (1,000 Overkill).
Nub dies.
Peasants rejoice.

fixt

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

14. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:47:09 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Why does GC waste his times with threads that have asked him questions he's already addressed?

Some players seem to get really upset if they haven't seen a recent response on an issue. We don't honestly design things by going around a table saying "Okay, what are we going to give rogues this week?" but I guess I can understand the concern from the other side of the forums.

Q u o t e:
And if you don't want people to think it's a number of blue responses basing how we're being looked at...how about giving us a weekly status update on what's being looked at?
A kind of newsletter, as it were. Make it a locked thread if you have to, so noone but you can post in it, but it would be nice to actually KNOW that we're being looked at rather than getting vague roundabout answers or flatout trolling in threads with our concerns.

I'm not sure a newsletter would really accomplish what you think it might. For one it would take a lot of time -- not just the writing itself, but all of the questions it would no doubt spawn. You say you are looking at Demonology dps? How? Are you changing talents? When can we expect these changes? Why aren't you considering the idea I suggested?

Second, and much more importantly, we actually get a lot out of the two-way communication. Selfishly, I am here looking for information. I answer questions now and then, but really my motivation here isn't to be some kind of goodwill ambassador, but to understand player concerns and problems. Posting a list of what we were working on wouldn't accomplish that.

Leonoire

< Hemophilia >

Shandris

15. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:48:51 AM PST

So basically GC is saying that there are no situations rogues can be top DPS, good thing this is intended.... wait

Melynda

< Echelon >

Bloodhoof

16. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:50:04 AM PST

Q u o t e:
It is something we're working on -- just too early for any announcements.

/hug

Just happy to hear you guys are working on it. Right now it's just such an annoying thing to keep up.

[ Post edited by Melynda ]

WarCraft: Scrolls of Lore
http://www.scrollsoflore.com/

Toccata

< Forgotten Heroes >

Black Dragonflight

17. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:50:07 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Posting a list of what we were working on wouldn't accomplish that.

No, but it might stop overflowering the forums with the same concerns over and over again.

-Akumos/Miramos.

Sileonex

Icecrown

18. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:50:09 AM PST

Q u o t e:
So basically GC is saying that there are no situations rogues can be top DPS, good thing this is intended.... wait

I think you read a different post than I did.

"Really nothing short of 'here is how we are buffing you' will measurably decrease the number of posts on a topic. :)" - GC

Cexcells

Kel'Thuzad

19. Re: WTB Blue Responses 12/23/2008 10:51:05 AM PST

So now rogues are designed around the fact that the boss needs to be like Void Reaver? Rogues will be the mage of this expansion.

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