There have been a lot of threads dedicated to warlocks and pvp mostly listing what warlocks think could improve their chances in pvp. Well, this is a thread about what I don't want. Agree or disagree - and share your own opinions.

(1) I don't want my defense to be tied to a talent. Making warlocks dependent on a particular talent for pvp will ensure that everyone takes the same cookie-cutter spec to survive. There is nothing fun about that. It also means that should we get attacked while not spec'd for that talent we have no chance.

(2) I don't want my defense to be tied to a pet. Pets should add flavor to our pvp style. We should not need a particular pet out to survive in pvp. When I'm spec'd chaos bolt I probably have a lot of talents invested in my imp. I don't want to need my succubus out to survive thereby wasting 6 to 8 talents points. I also really don't want a situation where the felhunter is good against casters, the voidwalker is good against melee, and the succubus is good against hybrids or whatever. Once a warlock pulls out a pet for a bg or arena, he/she really has no chance to get out another one (even with fel dom). I don't want to fight a melee with a VW and then turn around and be totally screwed against the mage heading my way because I don't have a felhunter out.

(3) I don't want soul link anymore. Soul link is a band-aid talent which is both a boon and a bane. Look, I'm glad we have something that helps a little (though not a lot). But, there are a few problems with soul link, though, that really needs to be addressed. The first is that every pvp build will assume the warlock has soul link and then build around it. Thus, a warlock can't survive w/o it. This, then, becomes a mandatory talent. Something I wanted to avoid (as stated in section 1). Second, it makes us too dependent on a pet to survive. If our pet dies, and if we're balanced on having soul link, then we're immediately undertuned as soon as it dies. And it will die. A pet with 8,500 health will be insta-gibbed by melee if they see it as a key to beating us. So get rid of soul link. It's been a decent band-aid but it's time to realize warlocks need more than a talent that makes us dependent on our pet.

(4) Don't make demonology the pvp tree. I realize this has long been the preferred method of fixing locks, but some of us like dots and some of us like chaos bolt. Don't make us give up our preferred playstyle to have a chance in pvp.

(5) Don't make us a one-trick pony. SL/SL was OP when paired with a druid. But we were basically a one-trick pony. That's not fun.

(6) Don't make our defense something that another class can trinket out of. This relates mostly to fear. When fear is trinketed out of, it's worthless for us. When it isn't, the one on the receiving end feels it's op. It also means that whether or not we live or die depends on whether or our opponent has his/her trinket up. I want something that affects me and gives me a defense - not another cc that is too easily countered.

TLDR Version: Our defense needs to be baseline (not a talent), not dependent upon a particular pet, and something that our opponent can't trinket out of.

Update: I knew I forgot something when I originally posted.

(7) Don't bother buffing Demon Armor. I still won't take it. PVP is about burst and I'm not about to give up all that spellpower for an extra 2000 armor that won't make a bit of difference.

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Q u o t e:
There have been a lot of threads dedicated to warlocks and pvp mostly listing what warlocks think could improve their chances in pvp. Well, this is a thread about what I don't want. Agree or disagree - and share your own opinions.

(1) I don't want my defense to be tied to a talent. Making warlocks dependent on a particular talent for pvp will ensure that everyone takes the same cookie-cutter spec to survive. There is nothing fun about that. It also means that should we get attacked while not spec'd for that talent we have no chance.

(2) I don't want my defense to be tied to a pet. Pets should add flavor to our pvp style. We should not need a particular pet out to survive in pvp. When I'm spec'd chaos bolt I probably have a lot of talents invested in my imp. I don't want to need my succubus out to survive thereby wasting 6 to 8 talents points. I also really don't want a situation where the felhunter is good against casters, the voidwalker is good against melee, and the succubus is good against hybrids or whatever. Once a warlock pulls out a pet for a bg or arena, he/she really has no chance to get out another one (even with fel dom). I don't want to fight a melee with a VW and then turn around and be totally screwed against the mage heading my way because I don't have a felhunter out.

(3) I don't want soul link anymore. Soul link is a band-aid talent which is both a boon and a bane. Look, I'm glad we have something that helps a little (though not a lot). But, there are a few problems with soul link, though, that really needs to be addressed. The first is that every pvp build will assume the warlock has soul link and then build around it. Thus, a warlock can't survive w/o it. This, then, becomes a mandatory talent. Something I wanted to avoid (as stated in section 1). Second, it makes us too dependent on a pet to survive. If our pet dies, and if we're balanced on having soul link, then we're immediately undertuned as soon as it dies. And it will die. A pet with 8,500 health will be insta-gibbed by melee if they see it as a key to beating us. So get rid of soul link. It's been a decent band-aid but it's time to realize warlocks need more than a talent that makes us dependent on our pet.

(4) Don't make demonology the pvp tree. I realize this has long been the preferred method of fixing locks, but some of us like dots and some of us like chaos bolt. Don't make us give up our preferred playstyle to have a chance in pvp.

(5) Don't make us a one-trick pony. SL/SL was OP when paired with a druid. But we were basically a one-trick pony. That's not fun.

(6) Don't make our defense something that another class can trinket out of. This relates mostly to fear. When fear is trinketed out of, it's worthless for us. When it isn't, the one on the receiving end feels it's op. It also means that whether or not we live or die depends on whether or our opponent has his/her trinket up. I want something that affects me and gives me a defense - not another cc that is too easily countered.

TLDR Version: Our defense needs to be baseline (not a talent), not dependent upon a particular pet, and something that our opponent can't trinket out of.

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I agree fully with everything other than point number 6. People need the ability to trinket out of fear. Granted I wish there weren't so many class abilities that break fear as well... trinket is the "trump all" for CC and fear should not be exempt from that. GIve shadowflame a knockback or disarm and that would make a huge difference.

I agree with all of this... and not just as a warlock. No class should be pigeon holed by talents or pets)

as for the trinket issue, no class has cc that is 'untrinketable', the key is alternatives; if a person trinkets out of fear the warlock can __________ or _________ seems acceptable to me

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Q u o t e:
I agree fully with everything other than point number 6. People need the ability to trinket out of fear. Granted I wish there weren't so many class abilities that break fear as well... trinket is the "trump all" for CC and fear should not be exempt from that. GIve shadowflame a knockback or disarm and that would make a huge difference.

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I think that you misunderstood what he was saying. He's not asking for a cc that is undispellable. He's asking for a defense that affects the warlock, not it's opponent. A la iceblock, magical shield, clos ect. The cc comment was just to show that a cc as a "defense" isn't viable.

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Q u o t e:


I agree fully with everything other than point number 6. People need the ability to trinket out of fear. Granted I wish there weren't so many class abilities that break fear as well... trinket is the "trump all" for CC and fear should not be exempt from that. GIve shadowflame a knockback or disarm and that would make a huge difference.

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More VARIED defenses. Right now warlocks have one: fear. Once that is trinket and/or on DR, there is nothing else.

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Q u o t e:


I think that you misunderstood what he was saying. He's not asking for a cc that is undispellable. He's asking for a defense that affects the warlock, not it's opponent. A la iceblock, magical shield, clos ect. The cc comment was just to show that a cc as a "defense" isn't viable.

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Perhaps I did misunderstand the OP slightly. Although, I do still think that a warlocks best way to be given defense is some form of CC or escape mechanism. The last thing I want is for our class to be once again a PVP tank.

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Q u o t e:



More VARIED defenses. Right now warlocks have one: fear. Once that is trinket and/or on DR, there is nothing else.

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Once your shadow school gets kicked/counterspelled/etc., your oh $#!% I need distance buttons are gone.

are you crazy, no soul link. wtf, then what you going to do then. SL been there since day one of season 1 wow. taking away something is that important and it give you more spell dmg. your crazy. NOT EVERY WARLOCK WANT TO BE GAY AND GO AFFLICTION AND THING THAT THE BEST SPEC IN THE WORLD. affliction warlock don't even do much dps in raid as other warlock who is demon/destro.

btw why the hell you wanna not have a pet. warlock is all make about relied on a pet. you want us to be like mage. you know they make mage just like warlock now, having pet and stuff. wat the point. wow your 2c worth %#!#

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Q u o t e:
There have been a lot of threads dedicated to warlocks and pvp mostly listing what warlocks think could improve their chances in pvp. Well, this is a thread about what I don't want. Agree or disagree - and share your own opinions.

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Novel approach!! They've said they won't necessarily implement changes we want... maybe we'll have better luck steering them away from things we DON'T want?

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Q u o t e:

(1) I don't want my defense to be tied to a talent.

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Agreed. Make talents that scale up the baseline, sure, but it's like the old SL/SL, you pumped all those points into those trees to get that far up, or you splattered. No want talent-centered defense.

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Q u o t e:

(2) I don't want my defense to be tied to a pet.

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A to the G to the R - E - E!!

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Q u o t e:

(3) I don't want soul link anymore. Soul link is a band-aid talent which is both a boon and a bane. Look, I'm glad we have something that helps a little (though not a lot). But, there are a few problems with soul link, though, that really needs to be addressed. The first is that every pvp build will assume the warlock has soul link and then build around it. Thus, a warlock can't survive w/o it.

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Almost agree. I still want Soul Link, I just don't want it to be a talent. And I don't want it to be just my damage going to the demon, either. I've never quite understood why this doesn't cause my demon to pick up my self-buffs. I'll keep it if it's trainable and has some ranks so it does more stuff. Or maybe make it like the beam-thingy the new boss in Kara got (link it to my ENEMY, not my pet), but in general, you're right, we can't live without this talent, so it needs to not be a talent, cuz right now it's literally forcing us to pump 11 points into Demo--and it's not nearly enough. No want Soul Link to be a talent no more.

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Q u o t e:

(4) Don't make demonology the pvp tree. I realize this has long been the preferred method of fixing locks, but some of us like dots and some of us like chaos bolt. Don't make us give up our preferred playstyle to have a chance in pvp.

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So much with the agreeing!! I'd LOVE to see it be possible to play PvP as specced deep Demo or Destro or Afflix. Forcing us to have 1 PvP-viable spec means you are forced into a cookie-cutter spec and you auto-fail if you don't take it. I do not want to have to spec back and forth. It's expensive, it screws with my head (cuz the rotations are so different), and it's just a really really bad idea.

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Q u o t e:

(5) Don't make us a one-trick pony. SL/SL was OP when paired with a druid. But we were basically a one-trick pony. That's not fun.

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More agreeing for you Mr OP.

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Q u o t e:

(6) Don't make our defense something that another class can trinket out of. This relates mostly to fear. When fear is trinketed out of, it's worthless for us. When it isn't, the one on the receiving end feels it's op. It also means that whether or not we live or die depends on whether or our opponent has his/her trinket up. I want something that affects me and gives me a defense - not another cc that is too easily countered.

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Nail on the head!!!
Also, if any give class is immune to my defenses (i.e. warriors & fear), then it's not much of a defense, now, is it? No want Fear, Death Coil, Howl of Terror, and Seduce all breakable with the same crap and on the same DR no more. Make the lock defenses SUCK.

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Q u o t e:

TLDR Version: Our defense needs to be baseline (not a talent), not dependent upon a particular pet, and something that our opponent can't trinket out of.

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TLDR Version: God bless you. I will now sacrifice my first-born to Razormaid.

I'd like to add a few things to the "NO WANT" list if I may...

1. No want escape mechanics. Those are for mages, always have been, their spells work far better for bouncing around a battlefield than ours do--especially if you're Destro.

2. No want the little HoT aggro on Fel Armor no more. Seriously. My aggro is bad enough as it is in PvE, this ain't helpin, and when Omen shows me in the low double and single digits away from peeling a freaking BOSS off my tank, we gots a problem.

3. No want Soul Shatter no more. 50% for hurting myself and burning a shard? You're kidding, right? Make it 75% and we got a deal. Or take the shard cost off it. Between the way it works and the 2-min CD on it, the sucker simply doesn't do the job for those "OH $*@!" moments when a Soul Fire crits at the exact wrong moment. No want current form, plz send this one back to the editing room.

4. No want no more of this "we don't think we want locks tanking damage" crap. That mentality has gotta GO, or we're never gonna see a meaningful fix. It was a good idea in theory, but in practice it is wholly unexecutable.

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Q u o t e:


Perhaps I did misunderstand the OP slightly. Although, I do still think that a warlocks best way to be given defense is some form of CC or escape mechanism. The last thing I want is for our class to be once again a PVP tank.

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The point here being that our main defense being something that can be cleaned and trinketed. Something EVERY class but our own can do twice (class ability + trinket). A defense should be something that we use on ourselves. And therefore is incapable of being trinketed. At which point I would have to take it a step further and say it should be undispellable as well.

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Q u o t e:


Perhaps I did misunderstand the OP slightly. Although, I do still think that a warlocks best way to be given defense is some form of CC or escape mechanism. The last thing I want is for our class to be once again a PVP tank.

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Do you think that any force on this earth will ever make the other 9 classes NOT have an overwhelming urge to run up and pound the snot out of us the instant they see us?

I don't want to have to tank everything, either, but the reality is as long as there are locks in PvP, we will always have melee punching us in the face. Giving us escape mechanics just means we burn up GCDs as we try in futility to get away from them and they chase us down--or root us, or snare us, or lock us out of whatever school our neat-o escape mechanics are in or we oom from running around the battlefield without doing much damage--and then we're boned.

No want to have to PvP-tank everything, but, barring a Men-In-Black style flashy device to put that idea out of melee's head, there's just not ever going to be a way around it. For that reason, sadly, no want escape mechanics. I'm not saying it's a great reason for locks as a whole, but from my experience it is the unfortunate reality.

Unless blizzard has some kind of unique damage mitigation or avoidance spells, I wouldn't mind pvp tanking like we used to. I don't want to be a shadow mage with version 0.1 of mage escape spells.

I agree with all the OPs points, especially with number 6. We need a defense that isn't casted on other people and can't be removed. We need something that protects US, especially from melee.

And basing us around soul link was definitely a band-aid, because now it's an essential talent. Every warlock has to have it, so why not make it baseline? Use that slot to give demonology some activated abilities that its desperately been needing to have a play style that isn't just like a 0/0/0 warlock.

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Q u o t e:


Do you think that any force on this earth will ever make the other 9 classes NOT have an overwhelming urge to run up and pound the snot out of us the instant they see us?

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Actually if you put a lock on a team with a hunter, your opponents might just be torn apart from the tremendous forces requiring them to 2 shot the lock or nullify all the hunter damage by sitting on them.

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Q u o t e:
I agree with all the OPs points, especially with number 6. We need a defense that isn't casted on other people and can't be removed. We need something that protects US, especially from melee.

And basing us around soul link was definitely a band-aid, because now it's an essential talent. Every warlock has to have it, so why not make it baseline? Use that slot to give demonology some activated abilities that its desperately been needing to have a play style that isn't just like a 0/0/0 warlock.

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QFT

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Q u o t e:


Actually if you put a lock on a team with a hunter, your opponents might just be torn apart from the tremendous forces requiring them to 2 shot the lock or nullify all the hunter damage by sitting on them.

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LOL!!

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Q u o t e:


Actually if you put a lock on a team with a hunter, your opponents might just be torn apart from the tremendous forces requiring them to 2 shot the lock or nullify all the hunter damage by sitting on them.

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i'm 2v2 with a hunter right now. it's awful.

All good ideas. Heartily agree.

try 2v2 with an spriest, it makes you really bitter.

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Q u o t e:
Thanks for the feedback. Good stuff.

In an ideal world, we don't want Demonology (or any spec for any class) to be THE PvP tree. This is tougher with the pure dps classes because any spec that sacrifices all for dps feels like a PvE spec and any spec that has survivability, crowd control or escape tools feels like a PvP spec. Long term though it is definitely a goal.

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Honestly GC with the changes you have made to destruction I think all 3 trees could effectively serve as a PVP tree so long as the fixes that you give for warlock survivability are core abilities and not talents. You have really done wonders towards making destruction viable for PVP and for that I thank you. Please keep in mind when developing the warlock fixes that making them talents will only take away from what you have already done :D