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Q u o t e:
The only problems with your arugemtns I can see is that... evidence from in game shows that DKs aren't as blatantly OP as you seem to make them out to be... I find myself not doing appreciably better than a similarly geared warrior tank, nor do I ever see groups turn down a warrior or paladin or druid because they aren't an unholy death knight...

So I just see no evidence in game to show that a 20$ increase in damage taken ( or more, since you suggested it might not be enough ) is warranted.

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Which tank killing raid bosses have you tanked?

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Q u o t e:
We adjusted Frost Presence to make up for the nerfs to Icebound Fortitude, Bone Shield and the change to bonus armor from jewelry etc. (Most raiding DK tanks were Unholy at the time, though they have begun to branch out a little.)

Both of those abilities are intended to be more like Shield Block or Last Stand, not something that is up all the time like Frost Presence itself. In most of the estimates I have seen that figure this is a huge nerf use pretty unrealistic estimates of how much Bone Shield is up (thinking their avoidance can make up for the charges). But we can check out numbers again.

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Go To Bed!

And yes, it is a large nerf to survivability on bosses where you can keep BS up for 30+ seconds.

I would hope they ran survivability tests on DK tanks comparing damage before and after the changes.

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Q u o t e:
We adjusted Frost Presence to make up for the nerfs to Icebound Fortitude, Bone Shield and the change to bonus armor from jewelry etc. (Most raiding DK tanks were Unholy at the time, though they have begun to branch out a little.)

Both of those abilities are intended to be more like Shield Block or Last Stand, not something that is up all the time like Frost Presence itself. In most of the estimates I have seen that figure this is a huge nerf use pretty unrealistic estimates of how much Bone Shield is up (thinking their avoidance can make up for the charges). But we can check out numbers again.

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I phrased that wrong.

Are you possibly saying it shouldn't be a nerf to cases where you could have BS + IBF combined to 40 or more seconds out of every minute?

Maybe you need to pay close attention to those DK tanks, taking a pounding, during cds.

I haven't raided yet, but I see it every instance run with a DK tank, fact is I wind up co-tanking with them to take some of the pressure off of them and the healer. I don't have to do this with a pally or a war, and I shouldn't have to do this with a DK tank either.

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Q u o t e:
Maybe you need to pay close attention to those DK tanks, taking a pounding, during cds.

I haven't raided yet, but I see it every instance run with a DK tank, fact is I wind up co-tanking with them to take some of the pressure off of them and the healer. I don't have to do this with a pally or a war, and I shouldn't have to do this with a DK tank either.

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A DK's worst case scenario for effectiveness of mitigation of incoming damage is heroic trash.

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Q u o t e:
We adjusted Frost Presence to make up for the nerfs to Icebound Fortitude, Bone Shield and the change to bonus armor from jewelry etc. (Most raiding DK tanks were Unholy at the time, though they have begun to branch out a little.)

Both of those abilities are intended to be more like Shield Block or Last Stand, not something that is up all the time like Frost Presence itself. In most of the estimates I have seen that figure this is a huge nerf use pretty unrealistic estimates of how much Bone Shield is up (thinking their avoidance can make up for the charges). But we can check out numbers again.

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how can they be like last stand? that's an ability the warrior saves for a tough spot.

DK abilities have to be planned for and worked into a rotation ahead of time due to the rune cost. otherwise no rune would be available to use it.

unless Blizzard intends for DKs to always have unspent runes when tanking?

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Q u o t e:
how can they be like last stand? that's an ability the warrior saves for a tough spot.

DK abilities have to be planned for and worked into a rotation ahead of time due to the rune cost. otherwise no rune would be available to use it.

unless Blizzard intends for DKs to always have unspent runes when tanking?

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You can always save IBF for emergency periods and still have high defensive cooldown uptime between BS and trinkets, assuming you aren't at the point where you can cycle them all for virtually 100% uptime anyway.

That's my point, there shouldn't be a worst case scenario at all, I shouldn't have to switch from blood, to frost presence, when my DK tank ,is taking too much dmg. There shouldn't be such huge spikes.

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Q u o t e:
That's my point, there shouldn't be a worst case scenario at all, I shouldn't have to switch from blood, to frost presence, when my DK tank ,is taking too much dmg. There shouldn't be such huge spikes.

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Um what? ARe you actually talking about tanking in Blood Presence?

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Q u o t e:
That's my point, there shouldn't be a worst case scenario at all, I shouldn't have to switch from blood, to frost presence, when my DK tank ,is taking too much dmg. There shouldn't be such huge spikes.

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Every tank has worst case scenarios, are you really complaining that DKs is trash monsters in 5 man heroics?

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Q u o t e:


Bone shield and IBF aren't on 1 minute cooldowns because they're oh %##@ shield block/last stand buttons you tool, make a DK tank and actually get some first hand experience with them.

IBF should be left at 50% mitigation at 540 defense and Bone shield should be nerfed to somewhere betseen 20% to 30%. AND keep frost presence with a 20% bonus.

I can't figure out how you people at blizzard are thinking that this 3% more passive mitigation is "OMFG WE BUFFED THEM!". Because I tank every single day and when these changes go through i'm 100% sure they're not going to feel like buffs.

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On the other hand, your healers are going to LOVE the changes. Which is kinda the point.

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Q u o t e:
Bone shield and IBF aren't on 1 minute cooldowns because they're oh %##@ shield block/last stand buttons you tool, make a DK tank and actually get some first hand experience with them.

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I think actually developing the class is pretty first hand experience.

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Q u o t e:
IBF should be left at 50% mitigation at 540 defense and Bone shield should be nerfed to somewhere betseen 20% to 30%. AND keep frost presence with a 20% bonus.

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IBF, sure, it can be higher because you can't block. Bone Shield however may still be too strong at 20% because of how much uptime it can have.

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Q u o t e:
That's my point, there shouldn't be a worst case scenario at all, I shouldn't have to switch from blood, to frost presence, when my DK tank ,is taking too much dmg. There shouldn't be such huge spikes.

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i may have misunderstood this but are you saying that as a dk tank you shouldnt have to be in frost presence?

The damage a DK takes, throughout a battle should be consistant, like a druid, pally, or war, at any given point a DK tanks, doesn't matter if it's normal, heroic, or raid. Damage spikes shouldn't be there at all. It isn;t for any of the other tanking classes, why should a DK have to.

It doesn't only happen on trash, it happens on bosses as well.

What if there was a point, you couldn't block with your shield at all, for 10 seconds, on a raid boss, suddenly you're taking a whole lot of damage in a short period of time.

How effective is you're dodge and parry at that point? Boss mob may miss you once or twice during that period?

We just want a little more consistatcy, with the damage we take.

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Q u o t e:

What if there was a point, you couldn't block with your shield at all, for 10 seconds, on a raid boss, suddenly you're taking a whole lot of damage in a short period of time.

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Warriors don't have guaranteed blocks. So yeah, it's entirely possible for that kind of luck to happen.

No, as a dps, I shouldn't have to switch from a dps presence to a tanking one, to help out the DK tanking the run.

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Q u o t e:
No, as a dps, I shouldn't have to switch from a dps presence to a tanking one, to help out the DK tanking the run.

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.... Errr. Why the hell would YOU switch presences if you're not tanking.