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  • Bloodhoof
  • 0. BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:15:40 PM PDT
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Or: How Rogue Tanks would be an interesting choice to have, and what Blizzard would need to do to complete their role.

It seems that with the new rogue talent trees in Burning Crusades, along with the shrinking raid size, it may now be possible to use Rogues as in offtank capacity, at the cost of DPS. As warriors are the best tanks as well as respectable DPS, rogues could be the best DPS as well as respectable tanks. This would be a nice way to get better class balance in smaller raid sizes, however, there are few things that would still need to be done to make this a complete reality.

What's the spec?
First, let's start off with a reference spec ( 3/13/45 ) for discussion.http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-rogue/talents.html?003000000000000000000005050210000000000000005022231030321010531551

So what are the key talents that would make this work?

Key Ablities
* Lighting Reflexes: +5% dodge
* Deflection: +5% to parry
* Riposte: Disarm after a parry
* Sleight of Hand: -2% to be crit
* Ghostly Strike: +15% to dodge for 7s
* Setup: 45% to add combo point on dodge or resist spell.
* Heightened Senses: -4% to be hit by melee or ranged spells.
* Preparation: Reset key skills like evasion.
* Cheat Death: +20% chance to not die (How many MT's would kill for this?) +20% not to wipe the raid!
* Enveloping Shadows: +15% to avoid AOE effects (I.e. Cleaves, Blastwaves, etc)
* Sinister Calling: +10% to Agility
* Cloak of Shadows: +90% to avoid spells for 4s

Magic Damage Mitigation
One interesting note is assuming similar stamina and resist gear as warriors (itemization), Rogues could potentially have superior mitigation against mobs that are heavily spell damage based (as opposed to melee). Warrior have shield wall and a passive 10% reduction from defensive stance, where as Rogues have Enveloping Shadows, Heightened Senses, Cloak of Shadows, and Cheat Death.

Limitations
The major limitation of a Rogue/Avoidance tank is that is very luck based. This comes down to Consistant vs. Unpredicable Damage. Armor, Block and Shield Wall are 'consistant mitigation' which healers love. In leather, with no shield, damage is still going to be spiky. Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, 3k, 3k, 3k, Dead. Oops, rogue down, somebody pick up the loose mob.

So the ideal rogue would be a fight with many fast but smaller attacks. Lots of fast 1k/2k hits, or lots of mobs with 50 damage hits (ala Fankriss) Huge spike damage fights would be really rough without some former of consistant mitigation. Much of this comes down to Blizzard's fight design in the expansion. If bosses have huge spike damage melee attacks (i.e. Broodlord/Patchwerk), a rogue tank would be like playing russian roulette with your raid.

Don't Leave the Role Unfinished!
In addition, there are still a couple of things which Blizzard will need to change which would make Rogue tanks viable as opposed to just a gimmick. Nothing earthshattering, but small concrete steps which would give rogue's a new viable raid roll. There are two key issues I see, along with a few minor ones.

1) Itemization (Key Issue): To start with, none of this works if we don't have the gear to tank with. We need leather with high armor (i.e. NecroKnight's Garb for starters), defense (need probably +75 to avoid getting critted along with Sleight of Hand) and especially stamina.

2) Threat generation (Key Issue): If we can't hold agro, we can't really tank. Threat generation through damage could easily be the way we do it, just like Paladins. Paladins have a skill (Righteous Fury) to increase their threat generation. We need a way as well, because passive threat generation for us is -29% now. Easily solved with poisons. Give us a poison that turns off passive threat reduction, or even increases threat generation. See "Threat Poisons" below.

3) Crushing Blows: These guys are going to be the rogue tank killer. Warriors have shield block (which reduce crushing blow chance) and high armor (to reduce the damage). Druid's extremely high armor makes crushing blows less damaging. We on the other hand, would take full damage and have no way to reduce the frequency of them. This I don't have a great solution to, but maybe they can change Heightened Senses to "reduces the chance you are hit by spells, ranged attacks and crushing blows by 4%.

4) Snap Agro: If we are looking at an OT role, this probably won't be an issue, since we can dump energy for threat to start with. Snap agro skills might be left to warriors and paladins. However, it could be elegantly solved with a Taunt poison. Combined with the Shiv skill (guarnteed poison proc), Taunt Poison could give us a snap agro affect, without needing a new skill.

5) Heavy Subtlety Investment (Minor): To get the all the damage mitigation skills in the subtlety tree, you need 45 points. The only 'free' points are the 3 in Enveloping Shadows and 1 in Cheat Death, both of which are key mitigation talents at the top of the tree. Points in Camouflage are wasted, and it would be nice to free them up somehow. Tying serrated to hemo also limits points flexiable. Not a huge deal, but it feels like you need a bunch of unhelpful talents just to max mitigation, when a rogue tanks will need more damage to hold agro (from the combat/assassination tree).

Threat Poisons
As I mentioned above, we need some way to generate extra threat. The most elegant solution would be some sort of poison. With that in mind, here are the two poisons we could use.

Aggravating Poison
Use: Coats a weapon with a poison that lasts 30 minutes. Each strike has a 30% chance of poisoning the enemy, increasing all generated threat generated by you towards the enemy by 59%. Hemorrhage and Ghostly Strike abilities you use on this target will generate a high amount of threat.

Note: This basically gives us the threat generation of a warrior in defensive stance, without defiance. In addition, it lets Hemo/GS act as sunder/heroic strikes for threat generation. Without this poison, or a mechanic like it, we just won't be able to hold agro without our passive 29% threat reduction.

Enraging Poison
Use: Coats a weapon with a poison that lasts 30 minutes. If the target has Aggravating Poison on it, each strike has a 1% chance of poisoning the enemy, taunting them to attack you for 1s. Has no effect if the target is already attacking you. Increases the cost of Shiv by 20 energy.

Note: This poison would be used on the off hand, along with the new skill "Shiv", which allows you to spend 40 energy to apply your OH poison. It would in effect give us a taunt ability, though it comes with some conditions. The added energy cost to Shiv, and the low application chance means you need shiv to apply it, and you can't do as often. Duration of the taunt is less important than a way to snap agro.

Itemizing for Rogue/Druid Tanks
Since both rogues and druids need non-set pieces, it would be efficient to create hybrid pieces that both classes could use, with the addition of sockets to tweak them. Both classes would use the same basic leather piece, but want slightly different stats on them. Druids want Armor, Stamina, Strength, Dodge and Agility (to a lesser extent). Rogues want Stamina, Defense, Agility, Dodge, and Parry. Leather pieces with higher than normal armor (i.e. Bloodfang vs. Ghoul Skin) are using part of their budget on armor.

So what does an Rogue/Druid Hybrid piece look like?

Demon Skin Tunic
262 Armor (Leather)
+43 Stamina
+21 Agility
Equip: Increases your chance to dodge an attack by 1%.
Equip: Improves your chance to hit by 2%.
2 Sockets (Or however many +13 defense would be worth)

Compare this to the Dreadnaught Breastplate, which has +21 Strength and +13 Defense. I have swapped Strength for Agi, and removed defense and added sockets. Now rogues can add gems with +defense or parry, where as druids could add +armor or +strength.

Conclusion
Smaller raid design could greatly benefit from having multiple classes which could act as tanks. With the talent trees Blizzard has laid out, Rogues are potentially 90% there as a potential tanking class. With a few more changes plus viable itemziation, there is no reason why rogues can't get their turn in the tanking spots.

Your thoughts and comments on this are welcome.

Special thanks to Celandro and Kalman for putting this idea into my head, and their feedback on refining it.

Updates:
* Changed concerns about spell damage to crushing blows upon further reflection
* Refined Enraging poison to be more balanced vs. warrior taunt.
* Added sample itemization

[ Post edited by Avair ]

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  • 1. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:19:59 PM PDT
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Dumbest thing I have read in a long time.
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  • 2. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:24:07 PM PDT
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Uhhhmm, no. Our role hasn't changed. We're still -trying- to outdps mages and fury warriors.


(PS, where did you find cheat death?)
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  • 3. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:28:37 PM PDT
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You did put effort into organizing and formatting this post but...

There's one thing that rogues lack to allow them to be tanks. Well, a lot of things, including lack of armor, and the fact that you can't be a "luck based tank". Most importantly, however:

We have no high-aggro abilities except for straight up DPS. No heroic strike, no revenge, no sunder armor, no +aggro buff like paladins have.

As you can see, you are now facing an unlimited number of blades. The finest of blades.
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  • Zul'jin
  • 4. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:30:03 PM PDT
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..........................................Bahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahha.

Rogue Tanks would be as accepted in groups as DPS Paladins. Technically, it *Might* work, but nobody is ever going to CONSIDER letting you do it.

You don't know what Magic is.
I'll give you a hint though.
It involves Pie.
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  • 5. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:31:54 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
..........................................Bahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahha.

Rogue Tanks would be as accepted in groups as DPS Paladins. Technically, it *Might* work, but nobody is ever going to CONSIDER letting you do it.


DPS paladins are quite the benefit to a raid in Burning Crusade. Sanctity Aura increases healing on all party members that have its effect. Holy damage itself gets a big buff, and the 41 point talent gives JotC a 2% crit buff to everyone attacking the mob.

As you can see, you are now facing an unlimited number of blades. The finest of blades.
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  • 6. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:39:19 PM PDT
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I think it's bloody brilliant. It sure gives rogues something else to do aside from fail at PvP and try and match Fury Warrior DPS.

Pandas and Goblins in the next expansionpack. Or else.
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  • 7. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:39:51 PM PDT
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First off, much love from me to the OP.
Cairdeas was a great bunch on DAOC - Bedevere - Hibernia.

Props from Shady Lane!!! (Morin)

Anyway, I don't think it's THAT crazy to have a rogue off-tank something.
Would I recommend it, or PLAN for it? No... but I could see it's uses.
People already do things like this in UBRS sometimes .... something is loose, a rogue can offtank it very easily until it gets handeled.

With all the talents and changes, we could do that emergency role MUCH better.

In obvious cases such as Twin Emps, if for SOME reason your raid F's up and you lose a tank, you can recover with a short rogue-tank to fill the gap. It's been done, it saves raids.

*shrugs* my 2cents. No reason to bash the OP for having a clever discussion topic.

cheers! :)

[ Post edited by Kalindel ]

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  • 8. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:40:49 PM PDT
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wowwww

Cloak Of Shadows rlzzzz
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  • 9. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:42:54 PM PDT
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I have no raid experience whatsoever, so I don't even know why I'm posting here.

However, it seems that the OP does put forth decent ideas with an attempt at offering solutions to backup the possiblity of such a thing.

<3 OP.
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  • 10. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:47:46 PM PDT
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Heh, I dunno about speccing for it as you lose SO MUCH DPS, but a rogue can offtank some encounters for a breif time, I know that I've tanked Vael and Broodlord for the last several percent after tanks died, and I also evasion tanked Emperor Veknilash for one transition between when our tank died and got battle rezzed.
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  • Silver Hand
  • 11. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:51:28 PM PDT
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I love how some people bash the OP for shortcomings that the OP specifically points out in his post...

Learn 2 read, maybe?

As for the "dumbest thing I've heard" garbage... well, why don't you add somthing to the discussion perhaps? Imagine if everyone reacted like an oxygen starved 2 year old every time someone posted an original idea. We'd still be charcoaling bovines on to cave walls.

Go back to your cave, troll.
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  • 13. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:56:59 PM PDT
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sounds fun to me

now its time to use rogue to MT in BWL!!
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  • 14. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 03:57:57 PM PDT
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A friend of mine tanked ony, hes a rogue.


Q u o t e:

Guess I really should cut back on my drinking. Nahhh..
no one likes a quitter.
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  • Gorefiend
  • 15. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 04:02:19 PM PDT
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We had an 8/8 Bloodfang GM Rogue tank ZG for us once.
He tanked everything but Hakkar and Bloodlord iirc.(Though he did tank the Raptor on bloodlord)

This was the day after we had a bear tank nef, so he was a little jealous :o
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  • Moonrunner
  • 16. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 04:07:37 PM PDT
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lol we have two rogues get Razu into place while the priests bumble about getting their Mind controls in place =)

dont suck you goons!
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  • Darkspear
  • 17. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 04:08:55 PM PDT
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In terms of mitigation, a rogue could probably offtank for a short period of time if specced for it. In practice, a rogue thus specced would be hard pressed, I'd think, to hold aggro, since they start with an aggro reducing aura and use lower damaging attacks like Ghostly strike. I love it when people try new exciting things though, so good luck, OP!

-Reeve
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  • 18. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 04:11:05 PM PDT
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I do think that rogues should be able to offtank in the expansion if they choose to spec that way. Currently a hemo build has a major problem in that the dps is significantly lower than non-hemo build. An easy cure for this is to allow the hemo build the offtank spec. Adding some agro gain to hemo (it does apply a debuff so it should have extra agro already) and some agro gain to expose armor (similar in effect to sunder so probably already has extra agro) and add a way to go into 'tank mode' with poisons and voila, rogue tank.

What is the proposed benefit to rogue tanks?
1) Higher raid dps due to hemo + more ac reduction from improved expose armor.
2) Higher mitigation when cooldowns are used (evasion, etc)
3) Reduced World of Warriorcraft syndrome, introduction of light tank class spec
4) Higher dps from whoever would have been tanking

What is the proposed detriment to rogue tanks"
1) Lower agro threshold due to not having the same agro increase as defensive stance
2) Lower mitigation when cooldowns are not used
3) Higher spike damage due to low AC, high dodge rates, no way to prevent crushing blows.
4) Lower dps from the rogue in question

Done right, it is a very interesting mechanic that would give rogues a different way to be useful than just dps. It will take good itemization (similar to bear tanks but more sta/def/agi/dodge, less ac) and a minor change to allow rogues to generate more agro.


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  • 19. Re: BC: The making of the Rogue Tank...   08/28/2006 05:17:19 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
I think it's bloody brilliant. It sure gives rogues something else to do aside from fail at PvP and try and match Fury Warrior DPS.


this guy has a point, sir.

=edit=
soliduck: i tanked hakkar on ZG before since im a HWL rogue and aggro is hard to hold for arms/fury warriors... and i hate holding back too much (i vanished and still got aggro T-T) so yeah.. tanked it full time cept when i was MC'ed/drained.

healers were argue'ing to let me die or keep me healed, in the end healing > letting me die yay XD
oh and i got around ~6.1k? buffed hp without imp.

Mausolus: Tanked onyxia too on wipes for full evasion durations and beyond ^^
but yeah since its on wipes, i basically die from breaths since healers are mostly dead or too busy dying to heal me.

[ Post edited by Quazacolt ]


Rogues... /HeadInHands
http://ctprofiles.net/3417046
http://www.deathinfusedguild.tk
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