well....EVER. There obviously isn't an immediate problem with healing in PVP...oh wait maybe there is or is the entire healing community crazy?

even if blizz gave healers the entire S5 set, can anyone survive 20k burst damage to another target ((or yourself) while you're silenced?

but hey follow healers you have to go get your RES gear by doing arenas that blizz expects you to fail at for a long time.

that is the most brilliant concept I've ever heard...go suffer for the next couple months while we think of ways to solve a major problem that we've known about but can't figure out how to do math.

This isn't a simple issue to fix. Even classes like warlocks have been QQ'ing about arena survivability.

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Q u o t e:
This isn't a simple issue to fix. Even classes like warlocks have been QQ'ing about arena survivability.

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you are wrong....it is very simple to fix. I'm no math expert but that is all we are talking about. math equations. Damage vs Health....if you can do more damage in the alloted amount of time for a stun or silence, etc, then a player has Health you have a mathmatical issue. To this point blizzard has not seemed to have had an issue. They have made a huge mathmatical error in their calculations and its coming at a time when it doesn't affect just one class / spec but affects a role. Since there are pretty much two roles in PVP then you have a major problem.

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you are wrong....it is very simple to fix. I'm no math expert but that is all we are talking about. math equations. Damage vs Health....if you can do more damage in the alloted amount of time for a stun or silence, etc, then a player has Health you have a mathmatical issue. To this point blizzard has not seemed to have had an issue. They have made a huge mathmatical error in their calculations and its coming at a time when it doesn't affect just one class / spec but affects a role. Since there are pretty much two roles in PVP then you have a major problem.

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And how do you buff healing or nerf every class' DPS in a way that doesn't ruin PvE?

It's not just a math problem. It's multiple aspects of the game that have to be balanced for 30 possible specs for 10 classes, where most people right now in both PvP and PvE are under-geared.

So, right now, a good arena strategy may just be to stack a bunch of DPS, but once everyone hits the resilience cap again, maybe healing becomes more important without any intervention on the developer's part. It's hard to tell how things will actually work out in the arena season that hasn't started yet. People are complaining about 4v1 situations in large-scale PvP or 1v1 duels, and not experience as level 80 characters in the new arena season that hasn't started yet.

if it's so obvious how to fix the problem, then you should be describing how to fix the problem instead of just complaining that there's a problem.

GC already covered this somewhere. The issue is that if they make healing competitive when you have little resil it becomes too powerful when you have a lot of resil. Since they aren't sure where the line is to aim for yet, they're waiting a few weeks.

I'm not saying it's right to take this approach since I feel first impressions are pretty darn important, but that's where we're at. I guess maybe this season will be all dps all the time, but next season (maybe even tail of this one) will let healers play a more important role.

I also worry this approach will result in rushed changes to "fix" the arena season that have a lot of unintended consequences, and that wouldn't really be good for anyone.

At least warlocks have a slightly greater chance of nuking someone down before they get to them over healers...

If Blizzard would give us some damn honor only PvP gear that's on par with Arena I'd be "fine" getting roflstomped since I can run into any old BG with some friends and just do whatever the hell we want. ("Hey...I'll use Levitate and we can all run off the LM!!")

Being forced to Arena to have any type of though of survivability at all though? %%#* THAT *@!#....that is all.

I've got to at least Arena to get the blue gear. If I want to use any of the honor I've accumulated...I have to have a decent rating. If I want to get the "10 man equivalent" I have to have a rating. Won't even go on to "25 man" and weapon rating reqs...

So...really...honor only gear...
>_>

Inb4 l2playnub, l2arena, l2notfail, l2class, etc...I believe this is a rather pertinent issue in which we can set aside petty remarks like those.

10k burst will become 8k burst
20k burst will become 16k burst...I thought that's fairly easy math...
use rogue as an example
with 2 point in improved ambush a rogue in full deadly can have around 90% crit chance with ambush
10% resilience will reduce that to 80%, still a huge chance
that plus a coldblooded eviscerate with 100% crit chance will still insgib people

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Q u o t e:
Dynamics shift dramatically as players acquire more resilience gear. Specs and comps that aren't viable in straight PvE gear become much more viable when burst damage decreases. We have seen this happen for four seasons now.

We haven't made an effort to keep the dynamic from shifting, nor do we think it's a problem that the dynamic shifts. On the contrary, if you didn't notice any effect from all that gladiator gear you were acquiring, it would be much less motivational as a reward.

Likewise, if you could heal through tons of damage even without a lot of PvP gear, then what would happen with lots of PvP gear? It's likely the game would devolve into silencing or CC'ing the healer and specs that rely on doing a lot of damage would be shut out as gear improved.

As I have said in a few threads, most players agree that the strength of healing increases as the burst damage endemic to crits decreases. The only question is to what degree.

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Whilst i totally agree with this GC, i think the problem is the fact that armor is needed to reach this medium but in order to aquire this gear you have to hit certain ratings/levels. This puts healers at a disadvantage straight off the bat. If there were very little requirements on gear for the first season other than let's say, shoulders then everyone could reach some sort of pvp standard.

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Q u o t e:
10k burst will become 8k burst
20k burst will become 16k burst...I thought that's fairly easy math...
use rogue as an example
with 2 point in improved ambush a rogue in full deadly can have around 90% crit chance with ambush
10% resilience will reduce that to 80%, still a huge chance
that plus a coldblooded eviscerate with 100% crit chance will still insgib people

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you'll have more health.
the rogue will be doing less damage in pvp gear.
if he's wearing pve gear he'll get waxed by anything melee.

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you'll have more health.
the rogue will be doing less damage in pvp gear.
if he's wearing pve gear he'll get waxed by anything melee.

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Except he wont because of evasion, dismantle, and blind.

This is the main problem about a gear-based game. No matter how amazing you are:

Gear > Class/Comp > Skill

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you'll have more health.
the rogue will be doing less damage in pvp gear.
if he's wearing pve gear he'll get waxed by anything melee.

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the problem is he doesnt even need pvp gear, he can stealth and instant shadow step teleport to your back and kill you before you can even realize what's happening
if it's 2v2 and he has another rogue partner, I don't think it's possible for any cloth class survive 3 seconds even if you have 20k health 800 resi
and once one of you is down they can simply vanish and score an easy kill on the other

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Q u o t e:
most players agree that the strength of healing increases as the burst damage endemic to crits decreases. The only question is to what degree.

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Vids showing that a rogue in t5 gear can do 16K damage in 1.25 seconds on a clothie target with 900+ resi show that the degree of burst damage and CC to mitigation/stam ratio is in complete disproportion.

Some of the most valid, relatively unaddressed PvP healing concerns that I have seen are:

--Classes that have a MS mechanic, in addition to the state of fantastical burst damage
--Classes that can lock out healers from casting completely in pvp(rogues/mages/ret pallys[dks])
--Classes that the general healing community sees to have too much damage in pvp (rogues/mages/ret pallys/dks/boomkins in specific, however this list is by no means exclusive)
--Average pve dps in raids jumping from ~1k from entering Kara in BC to ~3.5-4K in WotLK (a factor of four) where stam goes from around 8/9k to 16/18k (a factor of two)
--Deadly gear is very little worse as far as damage stats (Ap/Crit/Sp) than T5, which is easily obtainable from Archavon

What is terrifying about these factors are that "we'll wait and see" is the only response players are getting to coming into S5 knowing they'll be instagibbed with or without resilience out of the nature of the class they chose to play in the arena.


Edited for typo (no pun intended)

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the problem is he doesnt even need pvp gear, he can stealth and instant shadow step teleport to your back and kill you before you can even realize what's happening
if it's 2v2 and he has another rogue partner, I don't think it's possible for any cloth class survive 3 seconds even if you have 20k health 800 resi
and once one of you is down they can simply vanish and score an easy kill on the other

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2 ret pallies, 2 mages or 2 feral druids can do the same thing. there will most likely be a point when burst teams don't get the job done anymore and they fall flat on their face. and if it's as gloom and doom as everyone makes it sound there will be changes.

if blizzard thinks it's bad enough when people get geared out then they'll make changes. players don't have input when it comes to this kind of stuff. they want hard numbers which aren't possible to get right now.

quit blaming it all on rogues as well. they're not the only ones capable of shredding people.

I think I've done like... two BGs since LK came out. There's almost none running anymore anyway on Nightfall. No one wants to touch PvP with a ten foot pole for anything other than achievements. Mention of PvP in guild chat results in roaring laughter.

Obtaining PvP gear is/will be such a mess anyway. It's so ridiculously obtuse now for the sake of being obtuse. I don't want to do Wintergrasp, it's a mess on my server and I don't like doing raids with randoms, so atm I'd be stuck to the crafted set for my Holy Paladin If I put on that whole set there's no way in hell I'd even knock off double digits from crit percentage, so there's no real point. I'd be better off wearing my PvE gear and getting 12 seconds of high quality heals when I Divine Shield from a single attacker.

Blizzard should have just put the blue set on vendors again, solid offset epics for honor points (I think that is happening) and only had one set of arena gear that drops down each season. There doesn't need to be as much gear as is being poured into the game lately.

But even getting the gear wouldn't solve problems, it sure as hell didn't during beta.

What needs to happen is for PvP gear to get a hefty rework to provide more mitigation from other players at the cost of more damage. This path of repair is so obvious that I really don't even need to state this to GC or anyone at Blizzard, but it'd fix up the two core problems at the moment handily:

1.) It would allow people to slip into PvP better without feeling like a joke, especially healers

2.) It would kill off the PvP into PvE gear crossover that wrecked BC (and by looking at a lot of the pieces, will come right back and do it again, just with the requirement of losing 10 days a week in addition to sitting in a corner in AV)

I agree that resil will help to a great extent. However, as it stands the rating requirements on the s5 arena gear will be severly limiting to healers and classes/specs that suffer greatly by not having resil. Not just in s5, but in the following season.

Let's assume balance is obtained for s6; the burst classes that will likely be prevalent by the end of s5 will be geard to the teeth, while the healers and weak dps classes are still using the scraps they could muster. Essentially, we'll still be diadvantaged starting s6 despite balancing.

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2 ret pallies, 2 mages or 2 feral druids can do the same thing. there will most likely be a point when burst teams don't get the job done anymore and they fall flat on their face. and if it's as gloom and doom as everyone makes it sound there will be changes.

if blizzard thinks it's bad enough when people get geared out then they'll make changes. players don't have input when it comes to this kind of stuff. they want hard numbers which aren't possible to get right now.

quit blaming it all on rogues as well. they're not the only ones capable of shredding people.

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Nah it's different
if it's two pallies you know they will HoJ you, you know they will repentance you, you know they will BoF out of your snare and you should be prepared to dispel it, you can see where they are coming and have an rough idea on what's going to happen. You are prepared.
When there are two rogues, you are not prepared. you have no idea when they are gonna strike.

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Q u o t e:
Dynamics shift dramatically as players acquire more resilience gear. Specs and comps that aren't viable in straight PvE gear become much more viable when burst damage decreases. We have seen this happen for four seasons now.

We haven't made an effort to keep the dynamic from shifting, nor do we think it's a problem that the dynamic shifts. On the contrary, if you didn't notice any effect from all that gladiator gear you were acquiring, it would be much less motivational as a reward.

Likewise, if you could heal through tons of damage even without a lot of PvP gear, then what would happen with lots of PvP gear? It's likely the game would devolve into silencing or CC'ing the healer and specs that rely on doing a lot of damage would be shut out as gear improved.

As I have said in a few threads, most players agree that the strength of healing increases as the burst damage endemic to crits decreases. The only question is to what degree.

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pvp and class balance in this game is a joke kthanxbai

Also yay the healers get resil and dont die in 5 seconds awesome , what happens when new raids and gear etc are realesed and melee get hold of the new armor and weapons and smash clothies in 5 seconds again?

not that I care If i want pvp I go to a game that is actually balanced for such things