Bump

Ghostcrawler: I just tested this with a warrior friend.

100% reproduction using Org heroic training dummy using all 3 judgements:

Warrior puts up Thunderclap.

Just to make things simple, I wait till thunderclap has about 12 seconds left on it.

I cast judgement. Hit successful.

Thunderclap falls off.

8 seconds later

I cast judgement. Nothing happens, no mana, no damage. Judgement goes on cooldown and consumes it's mana cost. Judgement debuff does not refresh.

I wait for cooldown, judgement fails again, just like before.

Judgement debuff, + heart of the crusader fall off the target.

Cast judgement. Judgement successful.

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Debuff's rolling off the target seem to be causing this problem. As new debuffs are applied; they fall off before my judgement does (which it never will unless overwritten by another pally) due it having a 100% uptime at hit cap. Problem is this can cause 2 + judgement failures waiting for the debuff to fall off.

As an earlier poster said, as the judgement debuff moves from position X to Y, is where this bug seems to be happening.

This also explains away the crit relationship theories using hammer of justice. The debuff Hammer of Justice is rolling off before you re-apply your first judgement after casting Hammer of Justice.


EDIT:

It should also be noted, that as long as the judgement debuff maintained it's position on the target, IE keep refreshing Thunderclap, every judgement was successful.

I still need to test with other classes' debuffs, but Serenity's post confirmed what I was suspecting.

How to produce reliable judgment Failure:

1) Apply a debuff to the target
2) Hit with and apply the Judgment of Light/Wisdom/Justice debuff
3) Wait for the debuff applied in step 1 to expire
4) If the Judgment of Light/Wisdom/Justice debuff is still on the target, casting the same judgment again will cause it to fail

In other words, if a debuff was present on the target when casting Judgment of Light/Wisdom/Justice, but is no longer present on your next cast of the same judgment, the judgment fails.

Debuffs I can confirm cause the bug:
-Arcane Torrent silence effect
-Hammer of Justice
-Dots from Seal of Corruption/Vengeance

I realize that list seems short, but from the mechanics of those debuffs, I would expect any dot, silence, snare, root, stun, fear... practically any debuff to produce the bug. The one exception I've found so far is your own Righteous Vengeance debuff. And possibly Repentance; I was only able to test on a world mob since dummies are mechanical, but it didn't seem to bring about the bug. I think this may only occur with debuffs that expire naturally, and aren't broken on damage.

The one thing I'm still unsure about is why alternating judgments doesn't completely prevent the bug. I suspect it has to do with how paladin judgment debuffs stack (or don't stack I should say). With 2 or more paladins I'm not sure it's possible to rotate through judgments in a way that nobody is ever casting a judgment that isn't already on the target.

Excellent, now that we have a cause, perhaps devs can work on a solution (we may not be the only class suffering from this debuff bug). Added this information to the EJ ret thread, so we can get a lot of testing done there.

Ridonk, I tested this briefly with a warlock, a hunter sting, and a holy paladin - all of which preformed as expected (judgements after debuff expiration failed).

Bump FGJ

GC please see what you can do to fix this now that we have a way to accurately reproduce the bug.

bump

I hear everyone say it happens every now and then, i seem to get long strings of bugged judgements. longest was 4 in a row and am now seeing my crusader strike bug and not give damage from time to time, maybe 1 out of every 10 best guess.

has anyone else noticed this? it seems to coincide with the judgement bug i get.

hehehe, sorry didnt realize i was logged in on my DK when i made that post

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Q u o t e:
I hear everyone say it happens every now and then, i seem to get long strings of bugged judgements. longest was 4 in a row and am now seeing my crusader strike bug and not give damage from time to time, maybe 1 out of every 10 best guess.

has anyone else noticed this? it seems to coincide with the judgement bug i get.

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If you got 4 in a row I'm gonna have to guess there were some misses in there, because Judgement doesn't seem to bug if the debuff isn't already on the target.

Great job to all of the testers who figured this out. If the bug can be reliably reproduced then Blizzard should be able to start working on a fix. There's also another annoying bug with Judgement, but thankfully it is not as severe.

Test subjects:
Ret pally with +3 crit effect from judgements
Prot pally with -20% attack speed effect from judgements
Holy pally with neither debuff

If we are both Judging the same target with the same judgement (ie wisdom) we will cancel out each others effects. Let's say the Prot pally starts the fight with JoW and applies the -20% attack speed debuff. Next when the Ret pally judges wisdom the mob gets the +3% crit debuff (and loses the -20% attack speed debuff), but then when the Prot pally re-judges wisdom the mob gets -20% attack speed (and loses the 3% crit debuff). This will repeat over and over until the fight ends. If a holy paladin is in the raid then he'll remove BOTH debuffs when he judges wisdom. If each paladin is using a different judgement (i.e. ret using JoW, prot using JoL, and holy using JoJ) then everything works out fine.

I've tested this over and over and it happens 100% of the time. Basically you have to organize your Judgements in a party/raid otherwise you will be constantly knocking each other's debuff off.

No, no misses. i am hit capped when raiding (hit food buff) i checked the combat log after and nothing. I check after each fight and my dps has extreme lows when this happens, sub 1500dps. and no its not changes in rotation, i mentioned the 4 in a row because that was the worst id seen, usually one maybe two when the bug does strike.

Bump!

I appreciate the large brains and effort in this thread. Thank you!

And...uh, like the other guy said. AoW shouldn't reset melee swing (while you're at it)!

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Q u o t e:
This bug is more about righteous vengence trying to reapply itself but since the crit damage is less or so. Our judgement associated is also canceled.

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My alt paladin has been seeing this bug since he was high enough to get SoC. He had no glyphs at the time. and only had heart of the crusader, imp judgment, and benediction.

I believe what is causing it however is a crit or high hit and the proceeding judgments not being able to overwrite it. Something similar to Ignite (I don't know the real mechanics so I'll just explain) If a mage got 2 crits in a row and the first crit was 3000 and the second crit was 2000 then the second crit wouldn't overwrite ignite because the current ignite was stronger.

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Q u o t e:
Ghostcrawler: I just tested this with a warrior friend.

100% reproduction using Org heroic training dummy using all 3 judgements:

Warrior puts up Thunderclap.

Just to make things simple, I wait till thunderclap has about 12 seconds left on it.

I cast judgement. Hit successful.

Thunderclap falls off.

8 seconds later

I cast judgement. Nothing happens, no mana, no damage. Judgement goes on cooldown and consumes it's mana cost. Judgement debuff does not refresh.

I wait for cooldown, judgement fails again, just like before.

Judgement debuff, + heart of the crusader fall off the target.

Cast judgement. Judgement successful.

-------------

Debuff's rolling off the target seem to be causing this problem. As new debuffs are applied; they fall off before my judgement does (which it never will unless overwritten by another pally) due it having a 100% uptime at hit cap. Problem is this can cause 2 + judgement failures waiting for the debuff to fall off.

As an earlier poster said, as the judgement debuff moves from position X to Y, is where this bug seems to be happening.

This also explains away the crit relationship theories using hammer of justice. The debuff Hammer of Justice is rolling off before you re-apply your first judgement after casting Hammer of Justice.


EDIT:

It should also be noted, that as long as the judgement debuff maintained it's position on the target, IE keep refreshing Thunderclap, every judgement was successful.

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Hot damn, somebody get this guy a raise! Just tested this out a bit myself and this is what the problem is.

Next step is getting a fraps of it in action to show GC and hopefully now that they know the problem and can clearly see the bug in action it should be patched in quickly (I hope) this is a pretty serious bug.

Cutting it with the Global Cooldown after using another ability almost 100% made judgement not apply if I used the same one.

BUMP to bring new info to light.

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Q u o t e:
Ghostcrawler: I just tested this with a warrior friend.

100% reproduction using Org heroic training dummy using all 3 judgements:

Warrior puts up Thunderclap.

Just to make things simple, I wait till thunderclap has about 12 seconds left on it.

I cast judgement. Hit successful.

Thunderclap falls off.

8 seconds later

I cast judgement. Nothing happens, no mana, no damage. Judgement goes on cooldown and consumes it's mana cost. Judgement debuff does not refresh.

I wait for cooldown, judgement fails again, just like before.

Judgement debuff, + heart of the crusader fall off the target.

Cast judgement. Judgement successful.

-------------

Debuff's rolling off the target seem to be causing this problem. As new debuffs are applied; they fall off before my judgement does (which it never will unless overwritten by another pally) due it having a 100% uptime at hit cap. Problem is this can cause 2 + judgement failures waiting for the debuff to fall off.

As an earlier poster said, as the judgement debuff moves from position X to Y, is where this bug seems to be happening.

This also explains away the crit relationship theories using hammer of justice. The debuff Hammer of Justice is rolling off before you re-apply your first judgement after casting Hammer of Justice.


EDIT:

It should also be noted, that as long as the judgement debuff maintained it's position on the target, IE keep refreshing Thunderclap, every judgement was successful.

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Nice work. Bump.