No GC. Try and test it on boss type mobs. You'll deffinatly notice the bug if you're judging the same mob over a longer period of time.

Also, remember that most of the people concerned about this bug are Retribution. So try it with the general retribution raid talents.

1. Take off all crit gear.
2. Seal Command
3. Hammer of Justice to force a Crit
4. Judge Wisdom
5. Jude Wisdom - if this is not going to crit it should fail.

You could test this on a boss level dummy I bet, do NOT take fanaticism, and skip the crit talents for ret. The -4.8 crit percent modifier (you know what im talking about) should force this to happen.

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Q u o t e:
We've seen lots of reports of how to reproduce the bug. Many of them didn't actually reproduce the bug consistently. Maybe Hammer is the key to this one, but we won't know until some additional testing.

I don't read the class forums. We left those active as a place for players to discuss very class-specific issues, such as which spec to use or what gear to try. Balance and mechanics are most certainly not class specific issues, which is why we want to handle them here.

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Hammer may be a clue, but the bug happens very often without HoJ being involved since it often occurs on stun immune mobs.

By the way while you guys are looking for the bug would it be possible in the meantime to link Judgments of the Wise to the casting of Judgments and the not the landing of Judgments? This way we would at least not have to deal with mana starvation and loss of replenishment for the whole raid when the bug occurs several times in a row. The loss of damage is bad enough, losing 660 mana on top of that can really ruin our dps on a long fight.

I've had this happen while using Seal of Blood on bosses that are not stunnable. It actually happens to me a lot on Patchwerk, where I don't even look at HoJ. So the link to Hammer of Justice itself seems unlikely to me.

Unless the HoJ+SoComm thing is just to force the crit, at which point you're adding an extra couple steps to what is essentially:

1. Crit a Judgement
2. Next Judgement will either crit or silently fail

EDIT: I'll add that I've noticed Judgements failing as Prot as well, with only 6 points in the Ret tree (only one of which is shared between specs - 1/2 Imp Judgement). I think it's just more noticeable as Ret since it annihilates our mana reserve.

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Q u o t e:
Pardon my ignorance, but can someone explain to me this bug? On Patchwerk, the holy Paladins were judging Light, the Prot Paladin Wisdom, and I Light as well.

I am consistantly top 5 on DPS, on this fight I was 12th.

Then, on Gluth where they did not judge, I took my spot back at 3rd.

If a Judgement is already applied of the same type I judge, does it do zero damage? I was very worried until I read briefly about this bug. Is that the cause?

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Yes multiple Judgments from different Paladins seem to cause the bug to happen even more often, but it happens solo all the time also. Someone suggested that perhaps when a AP trinket pops our JoL becomes stronger so the next time we cast JoL again the game may be ignoring the new Judgment because the old one was more powerful due to the AP proc.

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Q u o t e:
We've seen lots of reports of how to reproduce the bug. Many of them didn't actually reproduce the bug consistently. Maybe Hammer is the key to this one, but we won't know until some additional testing.

I don't read the class forums. We left those active as a place for players to discuss very class-specific issues, such as which spec to use or what gear to try. Balance and mechanics are most certainly not class specific issues, which is why we want to handle them here.

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I don't think hammer is the problem but it might be a clue. It fails a ton when I do not use hammer in instances while using seal of blood. Maybe it has to do with critting and causing the next judement to fail but I haven't really tested it.

I've noticed the bug occurring more often on caster bosses than non caster ones...

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Q u o t e:
We've seen lots of reports of how to reproduce the bug. Many of them didn't actually reproduce the bug consistently. Maybe Hammer is the key to this one, but we won't know until some additional testing.

I don't read the class forums. We left those active as a place for players to discuss very class-specific issues, such as which spec to use or what gear to try. Balance and mechanics are most certainly not class specific issues, which is why we want to handle them here.

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I think the forums being condensed into roles is part of the problem though.

Many classes have issues that need to be reported or fixed, bu twith the forums being condensed it is just a big can of trolls pushing good information off the board way to fast.
Atleast with the class specific forums there was a chance that quality post were seen.

Why not just make class forums that require you to actually have a max level toon of that class to post? That would weed out alot of the trolling.

*shrug*

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Q u o t e:
We've seen lots of reports of how to reproduce the bug. Many of them didn't actually reproduce the bug consistently. Maybe Hammer is the key to this one, but we won't know until some additional testing.

I don't read the class forums. We left those active as a place for players to discuss very class-specific issues, such as which spec to use or what gear to try. Balance and mechanics are most certainly not class specific issues, which is why we want to handle them here.

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A class specific mechanic bug is not a class specific issue???

>,> what?

I had a feeling this was related to Righteous Vengeance, since that patch was when this bug was introduced. I just a minute ago specced 51+ ret, but skipped over RV and then did the previously mentioned method, but it still did make judgements miss.

It's something related to Judgement noncrits not being able to overwrite judgement crits. But even then, it's not a bug that shows up 100% of the time.

This might be semi-related to another issue with Righteous Vengeance and absorb shields. I tested this out at 70, and just did again a bit ago and the issue still exists.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1783/judgementdz9.jpg

RV's ticks are being based off damage done after absorbtion effects have reduced the damage. I don't think Deep Wounds works this way, and i'm hopeful it's not intended to be that way.

Stumbled upon this today. Maybe this was already discussed, but does it have anything to do with the damage caused by the Judgement?

E.g. First judge 1000, second judge 500... does not overwrite because the first judge did more damage. However, if first was 800, and second was 804, the second would overwrite because it did more damage.

Unfortunately, the bug is not directly linked to Hammer, because it happens on boss level mobs consistently. It's really evident to see when half of all potential judgements on a boss might "bug out" as I've come to call them. Yes there's a lag delay, but with judgement at the top of the priority list for attacks, it's hardly 50% or the 30% that it tends to hover around on an average basis.

A simple combat log parser, with a paladin character at 3/3 judgement of the wise, will show that the number of sucessful Judgement of [SEAL] does not equal the number of judgements of the wise gained.

For example, my fight on Patchwerk last night resulted in.

42x Judgement of Blood
31x Judgement of the Wise
31x Vengeful Justice (a 100% relic for paladins on judgement)

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Q u o t e:
We've seen lots of reports of how to reproduce the bug. Many of them didn't actually reproduce the bug consistently. Maybe Hammer is the key to this one, but we won't know until some additional testing.

I don't read the class forums. We left those active as a place for players to discuss very class-specific issues, such as which spec to use or what gear to try. Balance and mechanics are most certainly not class specific issues, which is why we want to handle them here.

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The Hammer thing reproduces it reliably, but isn't the cause of the bug at large. I've thought about it some more, so let me break down what happens when you cast a judgment:

1) You cast a spell called "Judgment of X" where X is the judgment you use (e.g. Light). This spell is just the debuff, and should only be capable of a hit or a miss.

2a) If the "Judgment of X" debuff was applied successfully, it triggers "Judgment of Y" where Y is the seal you currently have active (except in the case of Seal of Light/Wisdom, where I believe it's simply called "Judgment"). This effect is only capable of a hit or crit.

2b) Replenishment, Judgments of the Wise, and Heart of the Crusader trigger. I titled this section 2b just for clarity; these effects triggering is dependent on Judgment of X being applied successfully, just like Judgment of Y.

What I'm getting at with the bold text is that the effects in section 2a and 2b do not occur when Judgment of X "hits," they occur when the Judgment of X debuff is successfully applied. Although the Hammer test will force the bug to occur, there is a broader issue with debuffs and how they are applied that is the cause. Basically what I'm saying is that if you can make it so that when Judgment of X hits it will ALWAYS apply its debuff, you will have fixed the bug. The alternative would be making Judgment of Y cast alongside Judgment of X, making Judgment of Y proc the 2b effects (you'll want to make Judgment of Y capable of missing if you do this btw). This seems complicated though, and would only be a desirable solution if for some reason you can't make the Judgment of X debuff apply itself 100% of the time on a hit.

On another note, I'm almost certain the bug has nothing to do with whether or not the judgments crit, and I'll explain why:
1) HoJing a target and landing a non-critical Judgment of Blood will cause subsequent judgments to fail, just like Command.
2) Switching your Judgment of X after the HoJ will avoid the bug; the judgment will succeed.
3) This isn't the way judgment works. As I explained above, Judgment of Y (the damage portion) never occurs if Judgment of X doesn't apply its debuff. When the judgment bug occurs, Judgment of Y never procs, and therefore a roll to determine whether it hits or crits is never made.

This should be enough information to fix the bug. And just to reiterate, if you can't figure out what's causing the Judgment of X debuff to be applied, I'd look into just making it cast Judgment of X and Y together, making all the effects in 2b proc off of Judgment of Y hitting.

I can deal with Judgment of X occasionally failing to apply its debuff. I can't deal with doing no damage and not getting JotW, Heart of the Crusader, and Replenishment.

The blizzard developers are probably sitting in recliners in a room full of money and hookers having a big party. Then theres this intern GC has chained to a desktop monitoring this topic waiting for you guys to find out what exactly is causing the problem. Until then they'll just deny it exists.

This is ridiculous. Rebuild the spell.



---Ijin

This could also be caused by RV, which applies after Judgement crit.

E.g., a larger RV (from a crit) could be preventing next smaller crit or non-crit Judgement from fully occuring, thus preventing the other effects.

I'll probably test this out once I've respecced again, at which point I won't pickup RV at all.

This bug appears to be similar to what happens when you use an ability and a mob is already dead. The ability is registered as being used, uses up mana, and resets the cooldown, but doesn't register as a hit.

Could it be a bug in the way Judgement is applied to a mob's HP (e.g. when the damage done actually gets subtracted)? Could it be that client lag is affecting this as well? Maybe a packet or something is getting lost (though I think WoW uses TCP so that shouldn't be possible).

It would be interesting for those who are easily able to reproduce it, who are sometimes able to, and never able to, to post what their latency times are...

There are other factors that could be in play, like latency between the instance server and player server, and the communication between them... something is getting lost somewhere.