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Q u o t e:


Bringing 0 Mages? Ha! Please, as if.

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Mages are quite good dps for raids. But when you have 5 dps slots in your raid and 16 signups for those slots, including 4 mages, only 1 mage is going to get to go since the raid leader will want a variety of classes in those slots.

Why bring 4 mages as dps when you could bring 1 hunter, 1 rogue, 1 deathknight, 1 ret pally, and 1 mage?

Sometimes no mages or warlocks will get slotted.

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Q u o t e:
Blizzard can change their design philosophy all they want; there will still be people stuck in older mindsets who value an in-combat rez over a player who knows how to stay out of the fire. For your next raid, try something new: bring the player, not the class. Ignore class and just fill the roles and take the best players. If you absolutely cannot clear the content without your perfect class composition, come back here and complain. Don't denounce the new philosophy when you obviously haven't tried it.

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What a surprise, another Moonkin. Read my prior post too.

We've cleared current content just fine, way too fine tbh. But the lack of challenge (without relegating to arbitrary achievements) is a whole 'nother thread.

Again, some of you seem to not be able to grasp you fill YOUR GUILD before you fill YOUR RAIDS. Dig?

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Q u o t e:
Blizzard can change their design philosophy all they want; there will still be people stuck in older mindsets who value an in-combat rez over a player who knows how to stay out of the fire.

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Assuming players of equal skill, why would you take a player who does 5% more dps over one who provides battlerez and has the flexibility to switch to backup healing on the fly if needed? The vastly greater raid utility more than compensates for the slight loss of dps.

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Q u o t e:
Again, before you fill out your raid spots, you fill out your guild spots.

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So fill your spots with by role as DPS, Tank and Healer, not by CLASS as warrior, rogue, mage etc.

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Q u o t e:
To use your example:

You have one last spot.

You have a good rogue or a good mage with what they bring. (Minimal at best utility, especially if you already have another one in raid already, and ~5% more dps.)

You have a good Ret Paladin or a good Moonkin with what they bring. (Pally blessing, JoW, Replenishment, off heals, etc or Druid buff, mega caster buffs, battle res, innervate, off heals etc...)

Skill of each player is equal, which do you bring?

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Then bring the player you want to play with, or tell them to sign up early next time. obviousely you have overfilled your DPS pool, thats a guild issue, not game issue. you are still stuck in the old mentality, all these utilities are frosting on a cake, you dont need them to kill any boss. They are nice, BUT if you do as what the developers were trying to do, as bring the BEST player you can regardless of their classes, you really dont need them. why would you need battle rez when everyone knows the fight and stay alive? why would you need innervate when players know how to manage their mana?

again, bring the player

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Q u o t e:


There is far less need or usefulness with the 4 pure dps classes than there are with the hybrids. You end up focusing much more recruiting on 2 classes (druids/paladins) than you do on 4, for example.

Good raiding guilds only invite good players.

Again, when you say "you bring your 3 best tanks, your 7 best healers, and your 15 best dps" you are talking about WHO YOU HAVE ALREADY INVITED TO YOUR GUILD.

If you have 2-3 of each pure dps class, you are set. Zero reason to recuit anymore. You will always want more depth at the hybrids. MUCH more than you ever may have in Classic or TBC.

If the pure classes don't either simply do much more than ~5% dps or bring the overall utility that a Ret or Moonkin can, you will almost always be better off with more of the latter in your guild.

Edit: quote was messed up

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Because every one of those players has been with you since vanilla? Most guilds have a turn over of players. If you are recruiting then you go for gear, ability and personality. You need a tank, you recruit a tank, regardless of class, need a DPS you recruit a DPS, regardless of class. A mediocre ret pally and a fantastic lock sign up you go with the lock as they are more use to you. But equally you would go for the ret if they were better than the lock.

Class is no longer an issue, the player and their ability and personality are what matters now.

While I can't speak for all your concerns, I certainly can speak from the perspective of a balance druid.

You only need one of each hybrid. similar buffs for the most part don't stack. There will never be a reason to take 2 moonkins versus one moonkin and one mage unless the second moonkin can outplay the mage, thus doing more dps.

I'm pretty sure if I had rolled a mage I would be able to out dps any stupid moonkin who came around because I would take the time to learn my class and my rotations and some of the theory behind it all, which is why as a moonkin I can faceroll most other classes in dps. Not only do I have gear, but I know enough about my class to know if I should re-apply insect swarm during an eclipse proc or if during the bloodlust I should completely ignore everything because of the haste and spam starfire. Do your raiders / players who complain about hybrid dps know anything about this stuff?

What the game has become is you can't roll a warlock and do 4k dps by pressing one button and lol at everyone and tell them you are uber. If you aren't legitimatly good at playing your class and haven't taken the time to learn about how much haste you should stack versus crit versus hit versus spell damage versus stacking int for mana regen or a mixture of spirit or int, then you aren't going to faceroll anymore. I'm going to beat you because I know my spec inside out, I come prepared with 5 flasks to every raid, I carry around a stock of the fire seeds for extra spell dmg on fights like patchwork, I have haste potions and mana potions for every situation, and I play smart. It really is bring the player not the class after you get one of each type of buff you want. After that, you want smart players, because they are going to do great dps no matter what they are playing.
Skill + Gear > your character type now. though, skill + gear + character type > skilled geared hybrid.

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Q u o t e:
Will be in next reply as the forums aren't allowing posts to go through correctly.

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You should have titled it "Effects of WoW's new design on MY raid"

MY raid last week (just was looking at the patchwerk data)

4 Druids
3 Paladins
3 Hunters
3 Warriors
3 Rogues
2 Warlocks
2 Mages
2 Priest
2 Shaman
1 Death Knight

Hybrid Healers (Druid, Paladins, Shaman, Priest) made up: 11/25 or 44% (1 person over the 40% expected value, because we benched a DPS to trial a 3rd Balance Druid).

So if you back out Druids and Paladins being grossly over-represented in raids due to their value to raids, other Hybrid classes are actually seriously under-represented (namely, priests and shaman lost their jobs this expansion).

And that is MY experience in raids.

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Q u o t e:


You fill your guild roster knowing that people will not always be able to show. Tanks are historically needed to be very Full Time. If a pure dps doesn't show or 2, no big deal. If you run short on healers or tanks, you don't raid.

What does a Full Time Moonkin bring? Well again, caster buffs, especially if, gasp!, your ele shaman (if you have 1) doesn't show. Also, innervate, off heals and battle res are a hell of a lot more than any pure dps brings with their paltry ~5% more dps, no?

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So, the number of Hybrids in your ranks is artificially because they are performing multiple roles? By your logic, you should have the most Druids and Paladins as any other class because they are the only two classes that are capable of playing in all 3 roles.

How does that impact pure DPS at all? If you have a surplus of Holy/Discipline Priests, you don't sit out a Mage so you can bring in an extra healer. You get your 6-7 healers or however many that you normally run with and the rest of your healers sit out for the night.

If you are saying that your problem is too many of your healers are switching to DPS, then quite frankly that's a guild control problem, not Blizzard's problem. As a guild leader you should have told them that they were recruited to heal and that if they aren't going to heal then they simply don't have a spot on the roster unless no one else shows up.

It seems that your problem is that you assure players slots, not roles. Since you have to specify that someone is Full Time within a given role, that must mean you're filling your required 6-7 healer slots and then telling the rest of your healers "Okay, who wants to respect and DPS tonight?" Again, that would be your failure. You sit them.

I too run in a very elan guild, we would never have more than 32 raid-capable players, there simply isn't a need for more than that. 3 of each Pure class would give you 12 slots, leaving 20 slots left. That means 6 classes have to fill in those slots, which would be an average of a little over 3 per class. However, you generally don't need as many of the tanking/DPS classes - usually only 2. So you have 2 Warriors and 2 Death Knights, leaving you with 16 slots left. Say you need 10 healers, which is about an average of 2 per class with an additional 2. So you have 2 Druids, 2 Paladins, 3 Shaman, and 3 Priests. You really only need 3 tanks, but say you want 4, so you pick up another Druid and another Paladin. That leaves you with 4 slots to pick up a Shadow Priest, Balance Druid, Retribution Paladin, and some for of DPS Shaman.

So, we now end up with:

3 Mages
3 Hunters
3 Warlocks
3 Rogues
2 Death Knights
2 Warriors
4 Priests
4 Shaman
4 Paladins
4 Druids

This gives you a total of 32 players, 4 tanks, 10 healers, and 18 DPS. Obviously this is grossly unbalanced.

Most raids currently only really require 2 tanks, you can bring 3 to be safe. You need an average of 7 healers. This means you need 15 DPS per raid. So, each raid you sit 1 tank, 3 healers, and 3 DPS.

Again, you claimed that, for some strange reason, you absolutely without a doubt were required to have 9 Priests, yet nothing at all supports that claim. The problem here isn't Blizzard, the problem is you. If you have 9 raiding players of any class, then you aren't running a light operation. A light operation doesn't need to have 40+ raiding capable players, in fact even having 30 raiding capable players means that 5 people are sitting on any given night assuming everyone shows up.

The issue is simply you. You seem to think that because they are viable, they are required. You don't have to have anything, which is the whole point. You don't have to have an Enhancement Shaman, you don't have to have a Hunter, you don't have to a Protection Paladin. The goal is that you look at everything through the view of roles, not through the view of class. You can't seem to do that. Your failure, no one elses.

I'd have to agree. This "everyone can DPS" makes pure DPS classes extremely undesirable. Especially when the gap between a pure DPS and non-pure DPS class is so close.

Why would you want to bring a warlock, when the shadow priest does just about as much damage? Plus the shadow priest can off heal, or can spec out for a small fee to be a full healer? Come dual specs, this is going to get even worse as there will be even less reason to take pure DPS, as the hybrids can switch from role to role easily with no cost. That shadow priest can instantly become a full-on holy priest.

Nothing significant was given to pure DPS classes to compensate for their loss of desirability. They don't even have utility to boast of, since another design goal of WotLK was to spread all the desired buffs and debuffs across other classes.

And yet the greatest consequence is a severe lack of healers. Many people playing classes that could heal have decided to go with DPS or tank specs, making finding healers so much harder. I imagine Blizzard thinks dual specs will solve this problem, but the mindset of many of these people are that they are now "a DPS class", and refuse to heal, or at least in a primary capacity.

Since pure-DPS do not have a significant advantage over hybrids and no greater utility, the logical conclusion would be that there should be no pure DPS classes. Mages, Warlocks, Hunters, and Rogues should have another role that they can fulfill. If everyone's a hybrid, then everyone's happy. We might have more healers running around, and WotLK's design goals make more sense.

Frost mages could tank. Warlocks could drain life to heal others rather than just themselves, and their 51 pt Demo talent seems designed to be a tanking mode, yet falls woefully short. Hunters could tank via their pet and generate threat through a constant misdirection type ability. Rogues are a bit harder; maybe healing through their knowledge of herbs from poisonmaking?

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Q u o t e:


It seems that your problem is that you assure players slots, not roles.

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^^ this

This is about guild management, not class/group mechanics.

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What a surprise, another Moonkin. Read my prior post too.

We've cleared current content just fine, way too fine tbh. But the lack of challenge (without relegating to arbitrary achievements) is a whole 'nother thread.

Again, some of you seem to not be able to grasp you fill YOUR GUILD before you fill YOUR RAIDS. Dig?

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You seem unable to look past class differences in any respect. What class I play has no bearing on the validity of my argument. Attack the poster, not the class.

Your bias is showing as well. As a hunter, you seem to feel threatened by hybrids because you still see them as healers and tanks who don't want to do their job. Sorry, but we've been afforded a new lease on life, and if you feel your class is undervalued, ask for more utility. We're living proof that classes do get buffed occasionally.

And to everyone: stop saying 5%. GC said this one time and it was a huge mistake. The increased damage pures have is supposed to be some arbitrary number that balances out any utility a hybrid brings, while still allowing a skilled hybrid to outdamage a terrible pure. It's a difficult number to arrive at, and will require a lot of balancing over time, but they are striving for balance, they won't give you some insignificant damage increase and tell you you're fine.

We bring 2 of each pure for dps typically for what it's worth

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Q u o t e:


So fill your spots with by role as DPS, Tank and Healer, not by CLASS as warrior, rogue, mage etc.




Then bring the player you want to play with, or tell them to sign up early next time. obviousely you have overfilled your DPS pool, thats a guild issue, not game issue. you are still stuck in the old mentality, all these utilities are frosting on a cake, you dont need them to kill any boss. They are nice, BUT if you do as what the developers were trying to do, as bring the BEST player you can regardless of their classes, you really dont need them. why would you need battle rez when everyone knows the fight and stay alive? why would you need innervate when players know how to manage their mana?

again, bring the player

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Again, we have a roster of 32. We aren't overfilled on anything.

then waht are you complaining about?

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Q u o t e:


If you have a Warlock you have an Intel buff. Albeit it not as good, but almost. Certainly not game changing. If you have druids, you have decurses.

Also, I just noticed your sig. As a Moonkin, your bias is showing. =P Your spec may have been helped more by the changes than any other single spec. I'm happy for you. But even if you were 90% of as good of a player as an extra mage or rogue, a raid would be better off having you if they have no current moonkin, and probably even if they did. That is NOT "bring the player, not the class."

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Only a Fire or Frost Mage is capable of bringing the 10% crit debuff to a raid. Good try, but you failed.

I've played a Balance Druid since the release of this game when Hurricane was the end-talent and I have to give up Innervate to get it. I also happen to be the GM of my guild, one of the better theorycrafters for all classes in this game, and (if I can continue to show my ego) an exceptionally skilled player. My raiding slot isn't at risk no matter what happens, I've had it for a very long time. I am not biased in any way shape or form, I never have been, and my only goal has always been to seek perfect and pure game balance between all classes. Current raid design can accomplish this completely if you know what you're doing. Clearly, you don't.

You're right, a raid that has 3 Mages and 0 Balance Druids would be better off if they brought in a Balance Druid. Similarly, a raid that has 0 Mages and 3 Balance Druids would be better off if they brought in a Mage.

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Q u o t e:
We definitely don't want to get back in the realm though where a spec has such a crazy powerful ability that they are considered mandatory for a raid to succeed.

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Blessing of Sanctuary.

The whole question of guild make ups and the hyrbid vs pures getting slots has one big issue that has been pointed out before.

There are no Pure Healing classes. So therefor there will ALWAYS be more "hybrids" in a guild roster unless they snub hybrids who DPS completely - which, as has also been pointed out , won't be the case due to utility buffs.

I think all things considered the PvE balance in game right now is LIGHT YEARS beyond what it used to be. Is it perfect yet? Of course not. But it is nothing like before - sub optimal comps could NOT clear content where as now if the players are good it may be harder but it's doable.

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Q u o t e:


Yes, thank you. Very concise.

Also, with no current DPS-check worth a damn, it only worsens the situation. I'm left clinging to the hope that in Ulduar there is some extreme Brutallus style DPS check to warrant pures. But even then, it would have to be so stringently tuned that I'm not sure it will happen unless it's a lolachievement.

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Hang on, you are a hunter, mages and hunters are way out ahead in DPS at the moment, discounting bug using rogues.

At the moment for balance locks seem about right. Hunters and mages need a nerf down to their level. Rogues need a buff up to their level. Warriors need a nerf to just below lock levels. Ele needs a big fix up to just below locks. And the rest of the DPS hybrids need a few little tweaks just to finish off balance.

TBH blizzard have done a fairly good job with balance so far, it is very nearly there and hopefully 3.0.8 will address the issues.

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Q u o t e:
You then make 2 of those classes 100% viable as a tank.

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Pallies and druids

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Q u o t e:
2 of them can tank, dps or heal.

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Pallies and druids

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Q u o t e:
1 of them can tank, melee dps, caster dps or heal.

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druids

shamans and priests are balanced? =DD