---

Q u o t e:
Thunderclap - Blessing of Sanctuary

I spiked 11k-15k tps on gluth last night.

The 25% thing hits more often then you could imagine, it's almost always up or refreshing with my SS


If you dont believe me, try the rotation out before you start trolling.

---

Look you don't have impurity, spec all the way into wandering plague when bladed armor is proven to be more single target dps/tps. You have virulence and outbreak even though their contribution to your tps is almost nill. Your rotation blows, as you don't even have the runic power generated to unleash 3 death coils back to back at the beginning of your rotation like that. You haven't generated near enough rp for that even with bos. Yes with bos your threat is going to be king, I don't deny that bos is almost required for a dk who's guild has good dps. It's a huge increase for us simply because of how rp works.

I'd need to see a wws, anything else is just your word.

Runic Power from parries.

doesn't even have to be a large amount.

But if DKs are parry tanks, we need to get more from parry, especially considering it's DR.

I remember reading somewhere that we're not meant to be avoidance tanks, we just have a lot of avoidance because those are the stats that happen to replace shield block.

Just got done wit Sarth10 ... was averaging 4500-5000 TPS with 10 man raid buffs ( no BoSanc or BoMight ) according to omen, sorry I don't have a WWS ... don't even really know how that stuff works.... and on top of that my tanking set is atrociously undergeared ( as in, they said they needed a second tank, so I flew up top, bought all the wyrmcrest tanking gear, ported to ebon , respecc'd and reruned, then ported back )

---

Q u o t e:
I remember reading somewhere that we're not meant to be avoidance tanks, we just have a lot of avoidance because those are the stats that happen to replace shield block.

---

At this point, we don't have a choice. Could you possibly imagine OT'ing Patchwork w/o high avoidances? My healer would reach through the monitor and kick my ass.

Although I'm currently DPS specced, I've tanked every encounter in the game so far. I'd say that there are a couple main problems with Death Knight threat:


1) No "snap agro" potential. Warriors get Shield Slam + Heroic Strike, Druids get Mangle + Maul, and in all honesty I don't know what Paladins get so I won't even mention them further - my guild has never had anything more than a part-time Protadin for Felmyst and Muru. Basically though, Warriors and Druids have the potential to land their heaviest threat abilities instantly at any point. Death Knight threat, on the other hand, requires several low-damage (and hence low-threat) abilities be used at the beginning of the pull. This is exacerbated by the fact that Death Knights have no easy or effective way of accumulating runic power pre-pull, and furthermore our Heroic Strike equivalent is not reliably available on the pull or any kind of agro transition or wipe. Basically this leads to difficulty in picking individual mobs up, and furthermore it is difficult to make a mob stick to you after a taunt, as you cannot taunt -> unload snap agro -> resume normal tanking in order to make the mob stick to you.


2) Long threat "setup" time. This ties into the lack of snap agro. Basically, any kind of Death Knight tanking, AoE or single target, requires several GCDs and hence several seconds in order for the Death Knight to get solid agro. AoE requires 4 GCDs, in which threat is minimal before the final GCD, so it basically requires the Death Knight to have at least 5 seconds before AoE can begin. In comparison, a Warrior can Shockwave and AoE can safely begin immediately. The Warrior can then Thunderclap while the mobs are still stunned, and Damage Shield leads to adequate AoE threat in most situations - however, when it is not adequate, a Warrior can AoE taunt, a tool which Death Knights lack. Druids lack effective AoE for more than 3 mobs at a time, but they do at least have an AoE taunt.

As mentioned in the snap agro portion, a Death Knight similarly requires several GCDs of low damage and hence low threat abilities before any single target threat can be generated as well. At least 3 GCDs are required on a mob in order to get decent agro, and the first two GCDs do not produce substantial threat.


3) Variety of resources leads to poor reactive tanking capabilities. What I mean by this is that Death Knights are punished to a degree that no other tank is when something unanticipated happens, i.e. a patrol enters the fight or a loose add materializes. This once again ties into the lack of snap agro and long setup time, but it is worsened by the fact that the initial GCDs required for initial threat may not even be possible at some points due to a lack of the necessary resources - a difficulty which other tanks, with only one resource pool to draw on, do not suffer from. I should note that I think this problem in particular will be largely fixed with the removal of Pestilence's cooldown in the next patch.


4) Deals poorly with both Disarm and Silence mechanics. This one is simple. Warriors have a difficult time dealing with Disarm mechanics, and Paladins have a difficult time dealing with Silence mechanics (Druids aren't really punished by either mechanic, incidentally), but Death Knights are punished harshly by BOTH Disarm and Silence mechanics. When a Death Knight is either Silenced OR Disarmed, their capabilities are largely shut down. Death Knights are punished extremely harshly by the presence of either mechanic, to an extent which no other class is. This is more of a fringe issue, but it is potentially a very real issue depending on the evolution of fight mechanics.


5) Death Knight mechanics make threat stats essential rather than optional. The extent to which a Death Knight is punished by an ability failing to connect (miss / dodge / parry) makes expertise and hit a necessity, rather than a plus. This leads to Death Knight threat being extremely poor in entry level gear, when Death Knights are also penalized by the difficulty of getting crit immune. This issue is lessened in higher gear levels, when threat stats come on the gear and crit immunity is obtainable without gemming exclusively for defense.


The first issue I brought up, the lack of any kind of snap agro, is, I feel, the single biggest problem with Death Knight threat right now. The other problems can be worked around, either through gear or through intelligent play (conservation of resources and foreknowledge of the fight), but the lack of a solid snap agro mechanic is something which is going to cause Death Knight threat to be significantly worse than their counterparts.

---

Q u o t e:


They're compensating rune strike, nut buffing it, 50% damage nerf and 50% threat buff... I'm worried about the ramifications for our tank dps.

---

actually it is a threat buff, wow people arent bright

200% damage times 100% threat equal =200%


150% damage times 150% threat = 225%

or more explicitly if you were doing 2000 threat per hit before with it, it will now be 2250 Threat per hit

---

Q u o t e:


actually it is a threat buff, wow people arent bright

200% damage times 100% threat equal =200%


150% damage times 150% threat = 225%

or more explicitly if you were doing 2000 threat per hit before with it, it will now be 2250 Threat per hit

---

you obviously didn't read my post then, I never said it wasn't a threat buff, I said I was worried about DPS, which tanks have now, and it matters sort of.

---

Q u o t e:


you obviously didn't read my post then, I never said it wasn't a threat buff, I said I was worried about DPS, which tanks have now, and it matters sort of.

---

I read it quite clearly, you said it isnt a buff, it is a buff, you are wrong.

---

Q u o t e:


you obviously didn't read my post then, I never said it wasn't a threat buff, I said I was worried about DPS, which tanks have now, and it matters sort of.

---

and if you were having trouble following the conversation...


OP says, they are having trouble with threat

poster replies, they are buffing threat on rune strike

you reply, they are not buffing it.

After thinking on things shortly, I think a great idea would be to rework Blood Boil. Honestly, right now it's role is very vague, and with Pestilence's cooldown being removed, I can't see myself using Blood Boil very often. They should scrap the AoE component, as honestly Death Knight AoE is excellent already, and turn Blood Boil into some kind of high-threat single-target ability, on a cooldown if necessary, which delivers its damage and hence threat without needing diseases on the target.

---

Q u o t e:
After thinking on things shortly, I think a great idea would be to rework Blood Boil. Honestly, right now it's role is very vague, and with Pestilence's cooldown being removed, I can't see myself using Blood Boil very often. They should scrap the AoE component, as honestly Death Knight AoE is excellent already, and turn Blood Boil into some kind of high-threat single-target ability, on a cooldown if necessary, which delivers its damage and hence threat without needing diseases on the target.

---

Unless I'm to tired to remember, Blood Boil isn't an AoE effect, it does damage to target which are infected with diseases, but thats it.

It does damage to all targets in 30 yards whom are afflicted by diseases, so yes, it is an AoE effect.

I guarantee that every ounce of single target DPS i'm losing on Rune Strike in this patch will be made up when I get the SS sigil from Venture Coins vender.

---

Q u o t e:
After thinking on things shortly, I think a great idea would be to rework Blood Boil. Honestly, right now it's role is very vague, and with Pestilence's cooldown being removed, I can't see myself using Blood Boil very often. They should scrap the AoE component, as honestly Death Knight AoE is excellent already, and turn Blood Boil into some kind of high-threat single-target ability, on a cooldown if necessary, which delivers its damage and hence threat without needing diseases on the target.

---

Nice idea, but I dont see it happening any time soon. It would effectively replace Blood Strike for non-blood speced tanks which I dont think is a direction Blizzard wants to head. Also, devs are very big on theme-based balancing, and allowing ability not reliant on diseases would make their head explode.

---

Q u o t e:



I would like to say that using patchwerk as a judge for DK tank threat is terrible... in 25 patchwerk i pulled ungodly numbers with all the runestrike procs... 2740 dps (not sure what my tps was). On a normal boss fight typically runestrike does 20% +/- of my damage where as for patchwerk it does 42% +/- usually.

So normal boss fight 1500 dps (20% runestrike total damage)
Patchwerk fight 2740 dps (42% runestrike total damage)

deathknight threat is a problem
serious problem? i don't think so at least not yet... but if you are comparing DKs to other tank classes our threat generation on single target raid bosses is basement level.

---

I used patch as an example because it was what most of the conversation was revolving around. It's actually a really good one because of the frequency he attempts to hit the OT with hatefuls. With that and the lack of movement, it's pretty close to being a best-case scenario for our threat gen.

So, best case, we're close to on par with warriors. Worst case we're well below them. Paladins judging light destroy us all.

Also, in regards to desecration, to each his own. I do most of my guilds aoe tanking, so desecration and wandering plague are key. Others may require AMZ. I don't. Desecration also amounts to 250 tps on anything that's in range when the effect is applied. It's an aoe tanking talent. Plain and simple.



EDIT: With regards to the last bit of conversation - As a tank, pumping out a lot of damage is nice, but pumping out a lot of threat is an absolute requirement.

We have 2 taunts, do what I do and blow a taunt with DG ready just incase for singletarget mobs.

AoE is similar to other classes with D&D, but for single target mobs, if you don't lose it in the first 5 seconds you probably won't lose it.

I need taunt so rarely that blowing it immediately just so people can blast things at their leisure isn't a big deal.

However, take note, I don't usually followt his path and except in extreme circumstances, mid fight, on extra mobs, do I ever have issues getting threat immediately. Usually mobs stay with me for PS/IT/Pest/SS with a RS inthere somewhere. I also generally pull with D&D except on bosses.

Just thought I'd update on this. Munch started using a new rotation at the start that basically catapulted him to 100k+ threat in the first 10 seconds of a fight.

Basically,

Death and Decay
Plague Strike
Icy Touch
Blood Strike
--> Empowered Rune Weapon
Scourge Strike
Scourge Strike

etc.

Basically, depends on a 5 minute cooldown, but it's a pretty effective opener to build up threat quickly.

His TPS was still abyssmal on Kel'Thuzad though. Blizzard really needs to not tie DK's single-target threat output with a reactionary ability in Rune Strike.

You need to blow ERW for any boss you are MTing, right at the opening.

IT PS BS BS SS ERW SS UB SS SS DC

And you are way ahead of all your dpsers. If they go right after your PS you should pull away after the second SS. If you have BoS, you can DC your balls off.