World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence

Xok

< PKGO >

Kil'jaeden

0. GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 08:50:35 AM PST

GC, I'm wondering if we could get some feedback on how the developers were thinking this would be used and in what situations. The more I think about it the less useful I keep thinking it will be.

I can see it perhaps being useful when you know a big hit is coming (pyro, execute, etc). Then again, because we cannot attack and because it only lasts 5 seconds, it seems as though other classes would simply halt their attack for 5s and then resume what they were doing after that. So while we might be able to deflect a few shots right when we hit it, because we cannot attack it seems as though it might simply act as a pause in fighting at which point we really can't do much (can't even really get much bandaging done in the 5s). Once that pause is over, fighting would simply resume with no real positive net effect for the hunter.

Of course, I have not had a chance to test it but this is just how I see it playing out. I compare it to the current deterrence which acts as a nice way to deflect melee damage while you try to work yourself out back to range. There are several posts with good ideas but I would definitely support a deterrence effect that perhaps gave 50% damage mitigation (all kinds), lasted maybe 5-10s with a 1 min cd. Ideally, I'd love to see camo but I know thats not realistic :-)

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

1. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:02:50 AM PST

We built this ability primarily as an Arena tool. It isn't going to help you much in a one-on-one situation. It will buy you time to get a heal or to have an ally deal with the player attacking you. You can also buy a few seconds of life in order to Disengage or the like.

The directional component is something we are trying. It may not fly and we're prepared to change it if it doesn't work out. We wanted the hunter to have to do something other than just pop immunity and run away, but we also realize we ask an awful lot of hunters in general so this just may be too much.

We are much less likely to remove the inability to attack. We've had trouble with defensive abilities being used offensively and don't want to get into situations where the hunter lols at the melee who is up on top of him while he (the hunter) merrily takes shots at the healer.

One of the biggest reasons we wanted to change the spell in this way, though I understand it may not mean much to some of you, was to get a great visual in there of the hunter just parrying stuff right and left. It can look cool and it can be a visible indicator of what the hunter is doing rather than asking people to pay even more attention to tiny buff icons. It is hard to overestimate how much good art can help an ability feel cool.

Now long term, something we are going to explore a lot more is just plain juicing up hunter melee capabilities. You've got mail and you've even got some melee weapon strikes. If those were actually scary abilities, then a melee (or caster) class that closes with you risks taking a beating. The hunter could choose to flee or stand and fight. We're not talking about giving hunters a viable melee option (like Survival has flirted with a couple of times). But imagine your melee damage was 80% of your ranged damage. Ranged would always be preferable, but melee would be a decent last resort rather than pretty pathetic (as it is now). I want to stress that this is a long-term change, not something you'll see in the next patch or two, and I'll be the first to suggest that it may not work out. But it is an idea we're discussing.

Silveraith

< Last Call >

Maelstrom

2. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:06:08 AM PST

Thanks for quick reply GC.

Thank you Blizz

Q u o t e:
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Q u o t e:
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- GhostCrawler

Jathan

< Chaotic Good >

Durotan

3. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:07:58 AM PST

I'm pretty sure most will agree the directional component takes most of it's viability in Arenas away.

Alimath

< Bear Cavalry >

Ysondre

4. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:08:11 AM PST

Oh my God I've died and gone to heaven. Thank you so much, I was worred you guys were trying to phase out hunter melee entirely. Thanks for not listening to the small minded ones who think Hunters can't or shouldn't be able to melee!

As it is, it makes little logical sense that an awesome marksman, mail wearing, beast mastering warrior of the wild has extremely paltry melee abilties. They should at least be not terrible. Imo a good way to do this would be just to allow certain abilties that are currently only useable with a ranged weapon to be useable by either. Stings and Kill Shot spring to mind immediately. And, of course, maybe increasing the usefulness of Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite.

[ Post edited by Alimath ]

Elfik

< Fallen Legends >

Blackhand

5. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:11:31 AM PST

Q u o t e:
We built this ability primarily as an Arena tool. It isn't going to help you much in a one-on-one situation. It will buy you time to get a heal or to have an ally deal with the player attacking you. You can also buy a few seconds of life in order to Disengage or the like.

The directional component is something we are trying. It may not fly and we're prepared to change it if it doesn't work out. We wanted the hunter to have to do something other than just pop immunity and run away, but we also realize we ask an awful lot of hunters in general so this just may be too much.

We are much less likely to remove the inability to attack. We've had trouble with defensive abilities being used offensively and don't want to get into situations where the hunter lols at the melee who is up on top of him while he (the hunter) merrily takes shots at the healer.

One of the biggest reasons we wanted to change the spell in this way, though I understand it may not mean much to some of you, was to get a great visual in there of the hunter just parrying stuff right and left. It can look cool and it can be a visible indicator of what the hunter is doing rather than asking people to pay even more attention to tiny buff icons. It is hard to overestimate how much good art can help an ability feel cool.

Now long term, something we are going to explore a lot more is just plain juicing up hunter melee capabilities. You've got mail and you've even got some melee weapon strikes. If those were actually scary abilities, then a melee (or caster) class that closes with you risks taking a beating. The hunter could choose to flee or stand and fight. We're not talking about giving hunters a viable melee option (like Survival has flirted with a couple of times). But imagine your melee damage was 80% of your ranged damage. Ranged would always be preferable, but melee would be a decent last resort rather than pretty pathetic (as it is now). I want to stress that this is a long-term change, not something you'll see in the next patch or two, and I'll be the first to suggest that it may not work out. But it is an idea we're discussing.

Buffing melee abilites is a turn in a right direction; however, a lot of people would prefer the melee abilites to be removed, and instead our range abilites to work in melee range? perhaps adjust all range abilities to do 80% of dmg within 0-5 yards - problem solved. Let us use the melee weapon as a stat stick only. This would help us in maintaining less key's, simplify the clutter etc and it would still provide the same benefit/goal. The other reason for that is that we loose a lot of time adjusting for range/melee - imagine trying to cast 2 sec Steady and while someone is @ 7-8 yards and moves closer - we just wasted 2 seconds on nothing since the shot will cancell out the second somoene is closer then 5 yards.

Blackhand PvE - BM Hunter

Nerfmepls

Exodar

6. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:11:35 AM PST

Q u o t e:
But imagine your melee damage was 80% of your ranged damage. Ranged would always be preferable, but melee would be a decent last resort rather than pretty pathetic (as it is now).

Thank you for atleast considering this. Most pro hunters on these forums think that being able to stay at range is the only way a hunter should be able to do dps - lol'ing at anyone that even dares suggest melee capabilities be made a LOT stronger.

Being able to switch around between melee and ranged, will finally let hunters use their traps offensively, instead of trying to waste all their cooldowns just getting back in range to do damage.

OR - remove hunter melee abilities, and let us shoot in melee range? If we could shoot in melee range, you can prevent the ranged/melee overlap, by making all ranged attacks reset the melee swing timer?

[ Post edited by Nerfmepls ]

Accident

< Blackfang Brotherhoo… >

Argent Dawn

7. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:13:23 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Now long term, something we are going to explore a lot more is just plain juicing up hunter melee capabilities. You've got mail and you've even got some melee weapon strikes. If those were actually scary abilities, then a melee (or caster) class that closes with you risks taking a beating. The hunter could choose to flee or stand and fight. We're not talking about giving hunters a viable melee option (like Survival has flirted with a couple of times). But imagine your melee damage was 80% of your ranged damage. Ranged would always be preferable, but melee would be a decent last resort rather than pretty pathetic (as it is now). I want to stress that this is a long-term change, not something you'll see in the next patch or two, and I'll be the first to suggest that it may not work out. But it is an idea we're discussing.

I'm not a fan of hunters doing a lot of melee, but there has to be something done to make people pay in some way for the "sit on the hunter" strategy, that every single class uses. I don't know if it's the best solution, but I appreciate something being done to help.

Jathan

< Chaotic Good >

Durotan

8. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:13:31 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Now long term, something we are going to explore a lot more is just plain juicing up hunter melee capabilities. You've got mail and you've even got some melee weapon strikes. If those were actually scary abilities, then a melee (or caster) class that closes with you risks taking a beating. The hunter could choose to flee or stand and fight. We're not talking about giving hunters a viable melee option (like Survival has flirted with a couple of times). But imagine your melee damage was 80% of your ranged damage. Ranged would always be preferable, but melee would be a decent last resort rather than pretty pathetic (as it is now). I want to stress that this is a long-term change, not something you'll see in the next patch or two, and I'll be the first to suggest that it may not work out. But it is an idea we're discussing.

Why not just let us do our attacks at point blank and call it a day? Reduces button bloat, streamlines gameplay and would make the class feel 'smooth'. Put a damage modifier if you must, but the whole melee+range slush is annoying at best, gamebreaking at worst.

Also, you stated in beta when you opted out of giving hunters Camo that you had 2 new LoS abilities in store for us. Was Freezing Arrow all that was?

Salinthia

< Warpath >

Illidan

9. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:13:34 AM PST

Q u o t e:
We are much less likely to remove the inability to attack. We've had trouble with defensive abilities being used offensively and don't want to get into situations where the hunter lols at the melee who is up on top of him while he (the hunter) merrily takes shots at the healer.

I personally can't wait to see how you guys nerf bubbled retadins.

Q u o t e:
Why not just let us do our attacks at point blank and call it a day? Reduces button bloat, streamlines gameplay and would make the class feel 'smooth'. Put a damage modifier if you must, but the whole melee+range slush is annoying at best, gamebreaking at worst.

This. Malygos kills my damage because when he yanks me up in the air I'm considered in melee range and cannot use my main damaging abilities, unlike every other class. A quest from Freya in Sholazar Basin called "Returned Sevenfold" requires than the hunter tank the intended mob in order to do the quest correctly, which results in a lot of melee time versus an elite monster. The Drakkensryd quest, while it's possible to complete with nothing but ranged damage, it's easiest to complete in melee range because otherwise your targets may just fly away. Loken in Halls of Lightning does mroe damage to you the farther away you stand, meaning hunters have the choice to either do no damage or take more damage than anyone else in the party.

I appreciate Blizzard trying to provide variety, but the easiest way to shut down a hunter is still to "walk towards" them. Which is why we have pets, and is why some of the new pve encounters are so frustrating.

[ Post edited by Salinthia ]

"Umm...Dad....why does Blizzard sound like politicians when they answer questions?"
"Because they are both full of sh!%?"
-Khlora's son and brother

Alimath

< Bear Cavalry >

Ysondre

10. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:14:03 AM PST

I REALLY dislike the idea of removing melee abilties and using ranged in melee. Even though it would be a mechanial improvement for hunters, I really prefer the flavor of a melee competent hunter and would really enjoy interplaying between melee and ranged. It would make the class a lot more fun IMO

Famas

< Carebear Club >

Smolderthorn

11. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:19:33 AM PST

I don't see it keeping the facing requirement at all, im sure they will take that off. How about letting us use our melee abilities/attacks while it is active and just stopping our ranged attacks?

Alimath

< Bear Cavalry >

Ysondre

12. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:20:35 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I don't see it keeping the facing requirement at all, im sure they will take that off. How about letting us use our melee abilities/attacks while it is active and just stopping our ranged attacks?

Ooh, that's a good suggestion. That way it'll have some synergy with savage strikes and CA
and would be a good balancer for the front only condition.

[ Post edited by Alimath ]

Tailslol

Vek'nilash

13. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:24:47 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I REALLY dislike the idea of removing melee abilties and using ranged in melee. Even though it would be a mechanial improvement for hunters, I really prefer the flavor of a melee competent hunter and would really enjoy interplaying between melee and ranged. It would make the class a lot more fun IMO

Agreed. GC this is definitely a step in the right direction.

Known as Tails from Ravencrest-EU, Sienna from EJ Hunter Mechanics thread, lvl 80 Hunter and longtime theorycrafter

Companda

Darkspear

14. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:25:33 AM PST

I do like the idea of having melee abilities that aren't going to make us a melee class, but might scare some classes at least a bit from just jumping into out melee range to shut us down.

Is there any chance that the Devs could make macroing or combining melee and ranged abilities together simpler if we are not going to be using them. Having two keybinds for something like Wing clip and Conc, or just having key binds solely for Raptor and Mongoose makes it really hard to keep those abilities within easy reach.

With us moving in and out of melee range so often, it becomes a hassle to try to, say, Aimed Shot/Kill shot to finish someone off as they run at us, or Mongoose/Raptor someone as they run away. Lag and hit box issues can make it confusing trying to use one of the other.

I have leet arena ratings

Tailslol

Vek'nilash

15. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:25:51 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I don't see it keeping the facing requirement at all, im sure they will take that off. How about letting us use our melee abilities/attacks while it is active and just stopping our ranged attacks?

That's a great suggestion.

Known as Tails from Ravencrest-EU, Sienna from EJ Hunter Mechanics thread, lvl 80 Hunter and longtime theorycrafter

Quip

Stonemaul

16. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:28:31 AM PST

I think buffing Hunter melee DPS is the way to go. It solves a lot of problems we have with kiting, arenas, and even BGs. KIting works great in a nice open field, but in an arena or BG objective (towers in AV for example) it's not really an option. So basically the hunter is situationally effective in PvP and the frustrating part is that your oppoent is able to dictate the situation.

Making hunters effective in melee will change this dramatically and will fix much of what is wrong with the class.

Jathan

< Chaotic Good >

Durotan

17. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:31:12 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Even though it would be a mechanial improvement for hunters, I really prefer the flavor of a melee competent hunter

So something as subjective as "flavor" > mechanical improvements to our class?

The mechanics of our class are our biggest flaw and why we are so easily shut down in Arenas.

"Flavor" is the reason GC can rightfully say the Devs spent the most time on Hunters of any class in WotLK....yet a large part of that was the "flavor" of the new pet talent trees. Which were admittedly aimed at the "attracts a lot of newer players" aspect of the class. Meanwhile, our mechanics are still archaic and clunky.

Arena is the end-game of WoW PvP. This is intended, and forced. To divert needed attention away from core issues to protect the "flavor" of our class is not acceptable in my mind.

I truly think GC would be surprised how many hunters couldn't care less about their pets. Hell, I can't even remember the last time I named one. =(

Dudleydupree

Garithos

18. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:31:16 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I don't see it keeping the facing requirement at all, im sure they will take that off. How about letting us use our melee abilities/attacks while it is active and just stopping our ranged attacks?

^^^^
This + a melee buff would be a giant step towards areana viability

---
Moderation in all things. Including moderation.

Corbenn

Sentinels

19. Re: GC: Developer thinking on new Deterrence 12/11/2008 09:31:20 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I don't see it keeping the facing requirement at all, im sure they will take that off. How about letting us use our melee abilities/attacks while it is active and just stopping our ranged attacks?

That is a great suggestion, and it even fits with what GC posted up above about wanting that "parrying left and right" visual.

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