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Q u o t e:

I believe Fear breaks once you take 20% dmg, so the maximum amount of damage you can is 60% then you'll be immune to fear. Do rogue stuns do this? No you can get clothies down from 100-0%.

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are you aware that stuns do not make the target run around like a chicken minus its head?



do you understand that when you fear a rogue, its not just a loss of control but that we are running away from you and that it will take us a while just to get back to you when the fear breaks?



My main is a rogue, My pvp character is my priest, and this hunter i really just use for forum posting.


I have no issues with rogues in pvp. When I pvp on my priest including arena.. i welcome a rogue to attack. I would rather fight a rogue than a warrior, warlock, or mage any day.

So many fail casters in this thread and others that demand a way to win even though they are poorly geared, were not mentally prepared for an attack because they were questing, and didnt have a trinket on.

you screwed up, a rogue took advantage of your screw up. This happens to all players and not just rogues do it. I gib people on my hunter and disc priest out in the world all the time because they just weren't ready for me.

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Q u o t e:
Dude, how the hell am I supposed to get to them before they get off that crazyass ffb? Dragons breath lasts like 5 friggin seconds now! That's almost twice as long as it takes ffb to cast omg nerf. And fan of knives interrupt is broken so i cant like, do it from 8 yards away either. Clearly mages are op, especially deep fire.

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I concur! =)

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Q u o t e:
The answers to "stunlock" are simple.

1) Level to 80.
2) Fail at battlegrounds to get PvP gear to get your resil over 900.
3) Get a stun duration reduction metagem.
4) Spec to counter your PvP weaknesses, in this case, stuns.

Blizzard has provided the tools to counter weaknesses regarding stuns and fears. Its not their fault or my fault if you don't use them.

quick fyi: 1025 is the new resil cap, if you are PvPing with 400 resil at 80 you might as well be naked.

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So in order to even have chance against rogues, the requirement is no longer just a trinket, but a full set of pvp gear, which includes gems and trinkets? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? Most people can at least put up a decent fight against any other class if the have a trinket and the same gear level. You suggest however that we overgear and out gem and out play a rogue just to have a fair chance.

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Q u o t e:

If you're PvPing, you should have a trinket. If your trinket is down, Rogues aren't the only class that is going to wipe the floor with you.

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Rogues are the only class that can 100 - 0 me without me being able to do a thing about it if my trinket is down. No other class can stunlock/fearlock/or any other CClock someone 100 - 0 other than a rogue with or without a trinket. Obviously anyone with a brain will use the PVP trinket to do arena and BGs. The point is that without that trinket(trinkte being in CD is the most likely cause) a rogue can stunlock people 100 -0 without them having any options to fight back. That is not balance.

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Q u o t e:


So in order to even have chance against rogues, the requirement is no longer just a trinket, but a full set of pvp gear, which includes gems and trinkets? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? Most people can at least put up a decent fight against any other class if the have a trinket and the same gear level. You suggest however that we overgear and out gem and out play a rogue just to have a fair chance.

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This.


Also lol@ all the rogues in this thread QQing about fear from warlocks, if you let yourself get feared in a 1v1 situation you're *@#%ing horrible at this game, end of story.

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Q u o t e:


Hahahaha.

PvE quote to a PvP discussion. Woah.

Where might I ask you are you bringing me?

This is 1vs1 QQ about stunlock.

Stop posting.

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Your whole "Warlock counter" argument is fluff. Blizzard had stated before WotLK came out that they want to level the playing field for Rogue vs. Warlock, Warlock vs. Mage, because at the time Rogues (and melee in general but particularly Rogues) were countering Warlocks roughly. They greatly leveled the playing field for Warlock vs. Mage in serious favor of Mage against all clothies now, but made the Rogue vs. Warlock encounter worse.

One might argue it's because Warlocks are in a horrible position right now, but what many people are stating in this post is the fact that multiple classes are finding stun-locks overbearing at the moment. When multiple classes found fear overbearing, what did they do consistently with each patch?

But, you're right, this is a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors as everyone loves to remind the forums. Rogues should be a counter to clothies, but when a class can be 100-0 (yes, contrary to your dogmatic arguments clothies even in good gear are getting stun-locked to death) which takes all "skill" component out of PvP, then there is a serious issue. But you argue that a Rogue can only 100-0 someone who is horribly undergeared, I'm sorry but 100-0 is a very strong thing, gear can only do so much, and that's not even considering the fact that you're now saying that someone has to be in great gear, have trinket off cooldown, have their own spells off cooldown, etc. just to have a chance at surviving a Rogue. That's a little weak for an argument.

Another point, trinket should NEVER be required just to survive 1 encounter with another class. It should help considerably in PvP since that's what it's there for, but it should NEVER be a crutch and a fall-back argument. Rogues are in a delicate position at the moment, and I can see that's where your arguments might stem from. You're having trouble with melee at the moment too (though, you should be choosing your fights appropriately), however trinket is not class balance and should not be intrinsic to ANY PvP encounter. In example of this horrible assumption that trinket is class balance, at the moment, Demonic Circle advocates are arguing that it should break stuns, but people are responding that trinket is all we need; I wasn't aware that trinket should be required for any class spell to work.

Stuns may or may not be THE problem, but I don't think nerfing Rogue damage would solve any issues, seeing as how Rogues in PvE are in a slightly less favorable situation. Something does need to be done about the situation, so that means either giving most classes a way to break stuns and nerfing stuns ala fear, or just nerfing stuns/or nerfing Rogue burst, or foregoing stuns altogether and buffing clothie classes against melee. I'm afraid that Blizzard likes to take the easy routes, and nerfing stuns seems to be the easy route.

Another fallacy about the whole "trinket is the solution" argument is that Rogues have STRONG counters against trinket. CloS + Vanish is an especially good one, and the fact that if we trinket one stun there's blind, KS if CS was broken, and gouge just to name a few good ones.

I'm not flaming you. I would appreciate you avoiding any ad hominems.

I think in *perfect* situations Rogues *should* be able to stunlock someone of their gear level to death.

When we aren't talking pve bosses, stealth is a big part of a Rogue's advantage. A rogue takes a penalty in stealth by moving around slowly, not being able to contribute dmg, and then carefully circling around to not be within anyone's vision. If it all works then they get that opener. If they don't then they are at a disadvantage, because if they don't then rogues are just a poor man's dps-warrior.

The Rogue won't pull the stunlock off if there is another player nearby though. Or if they have a trinket. Or are better geared and have resilience. Or the rogue misclicks.

But yes, sometimes the Rogue will come into that perfect storm of circumstances: He isn't spotted by anyone in stealth, opponent doesn't have better gear or anti-rogue (resilience) gear. And the opponent doesn't have a lot of armor. Oh, and the opponent is alone with no one to help. And the rogue doesn't misclick/mistime. Yes in that perfect circumstance the rogue will eat you for lunch. And you will be tasty.

Gear aside, I have had many tasty priest and warlock snacks. In turn I have been a tasty snack for rogues on my priest main, my mage, my friends on their warlocks, etc. One on one in the perfect circumstances, rogues are meant to eat them. Yum.

Gear aside, other classes have their own advantages over a rogue.

-Against equally geared and leveled opponents I am a tasty snack to anyone in plate or bear form, (especially those who can easily heal themselves) and most especially if I am unstealthed.

-A rogue just has to eat ranged dmg until he's close. There are ways to make up that distance quickly, but the fact is the ranged attacker will get some free hits in. No real chance of an opener there, especially since every class has at least a weak aoe to pop him out of stealth, or bleed to keep him out. Big disadvantage for a rogue.

All things equal, if a close-quarter single-target dps attacker based around burst damage and stealth has a perfect situational advantage on a single target ranged defender with low damage mitigation, then the defender is a tasty snack and deserves to be.


Yum.

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Q u o t e:


Sigh. Even if I catch the Rogue in stealth, the problem of getting 100-0 will still exist.

I see Rogue > Dot > Dot > Rogue CloS > Vanish > CS > etc etc

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So you don't wear a PvP Trinket? You just made that Rogue pop 2 cooldowns. Cloak now has a 1.5 minute CD meaning after the above scenario we cannot trinket your death coil -> cloak your fear back to back. It also means that we cannot Cloak off your DoTs for another 1.5 minutes.

Again its not my fault or blizzard's fault if you don't use a stun reduction meta and use your stun reduction talents. Use the tools they gave you.

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Q u o t e:
Melee is pretty nuts right now in PvP. Everyone who denies it is pretty much either delusional or is trying to avoid nerfs.

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do you honestly think it would be a good idea to nerf anyone due to pvp balance right now?


a new arena season has not even started, the only thing people are going off of here is wintergrasp and a handful of BGs.




ps. at level 80 you have 12.8k hp.. my level 71 priest has about 11k unbuffed hp, more if i choose some more pvp pieces out of my bag. Did you ever consider that you are delusional for thinking that you should own in pvp despite your absolutely CRAPtastic gear?

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Q u o t e:


So in order to even have chance against rogues, the requirement is no longer just a trinket, but a full set of pvp gear, which includes gems and trinkets? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? Most people can at least put up a decent fight against any other class if the have a trinket and the same gear level. You suggest however that we overgear and out gem and out play a rogue just to have a fair chance.

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In my lvl80 PvE epics I get 3 shot by ret paladins and good death knights. I am on a PvP server so I get ganked by Hunters all the time while doing my dailies. You don't see me crying about it.

If you or I want to be effective in PvP then both of us need full sets of PvP gear. A PvE rogue is useless in organized PvP as his damage will be healed through and since he is now out of stealth he will be 2 or 3 shot.

::edit:: accidental first O.o

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Q u o t e:
Our conversations go something like this:

In some situations, stuns can feel really overpowered and players on the receiving end of them can feel really helpless.

So, we could treat stuns a lot more like we do other forms of CC.

However, we have built a few specs around their stuns (rogues obviously, but Ret and other specs benefit from it too). These would need to be buffed significantly to compensate. For example, a rogue who can't stun as often or as for long would need a lot of defenses to compensate. Currently, preventing an opponent from attacking is one of their strongest defenses.

We totally understand the contingent of players who think excessive stuns just aren't fun. We did back off on several of the proc-a-stun mechanics in the game already. It is something we're talking about. Obviously I don't an announcement of incoming changes or I would have made them already.

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Since cloak, evasion, vanish, blind, and dismantle aren't more defensive abilities than any other class in the game has or anything.

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Q u o t e:
Our conversations go something like this:

In some situations, stuns can feel really overpowered and players on the receiving end of them can feel really helpless.

So, we could treat stuns a lot more like we do other forms of CC.

However, we have built a few specs around their stuns (rogues obviously, but Ret and other specs benefit from it too). These would need to be buffed significantly to compensate. For example, a rogue who can't stun as often or as for long would need a lot of defenses to compensate. Currently, preventing an opponent from attacking is one of their strongest defenses.

We totally understand the contingent of players who think excessive stuns just aren't fun. We did back off on several of the proc-a-stun mechanics in the game already. It is something we're talking about. Obviously I don't an announcement of incoming changes or I would have made them already.

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Thank you for considering the subject though. =)

Makes me happy to know that something might come of this.

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Q u o t e:
Obviously I don't an announcement of incoming changes or I would have made them already.

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I accidentally an announcement

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Q u o t e:




do you honestly think it would be a good idea to nerf anyone due to pvp balance right now?


a new arena season has not even started, the only thing people are going off of here is wintergrasp and a handful of BGs.




ps. at level 80 you have 12.8k hp.. my level 71 priest has about 11k unbuffed hp, more if i choose some more pvp pieces out of my bag. Did you ever consider that you are delusional for thinking that you should own in pvp despite your absolutely CRAPtastic gear?

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Well first of all there is no reason for me to PvP atm - I am honor capped and arena have not started yet.
Regarding my gear - it helps me push out 2k DPS in heroics, thank you for asking.
Regarding my spec and HP - did you expect something else from a PvE mage?

Regarding nerfs - I was not calling out for them was I? On the other hand - do you really think melee is fine the way they are? Really?

Oh an next time before throwing the craptastic gear remarks please post on main, so we all can see how UB3R 1337 your gear is.

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Q u o t e:


I accidentally an announcement

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The whole announcement?

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Q u o t e:

Since cloak, evasion, vanish, blind, and dismantle aren't more defensive abilities than any other class in the game has or anything.

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That's right, you tell GC.

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Q u o t e:
Our conversations go something like this:

In some situations, stuns can feel really overpowered and players on the receiving end of them can feel really helpless.

So, we could treat stuns a lot more like we do other forms of CC.

However, we have built a few specs around their stuns (rogues obviously, but Ret and other specs benefit from it too). These would need to be buffed significantly to compensate. For example, a rogue who can't stun as often or as for long would need a lot of defenses to compensate. Currently, preventing an opponent from attacking is one of their strongest defenses.

We totally understand the contingent of players who think excessive stuns just aren't fun. We did back off on several of the proc-a-stun mechanics in the game already. It is something we're talking about. Obviously I don't an announcement of incoming changes or I would have made them already.

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THANK YOU! At least now we know that you are looking into some kind of solution to balance.

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Q u o t e:
Our conversations go something like this:

In some situations, stuns can feel really overpowered and players on the receiving end of them can feel really helpless.

So, we could treat stuns a lot more like we do other forms of CC.

However, we have built a few specs around their stuns (rogues obviously, but Ret and other specs benefit from it too). These would need to be buffed significantly to compensate. For example, a rogue who can't stun as often or as for long would need a lot of defenses to compensate. Currently, preventing an opponent from attacking is one of their strongest defenses.

We totally understand the contingent of players who think excessive stuns just aren't fun. We did back off on several of the proc-a-stun mechanics in the game already. It is something we're talking about. Obviously I don't an announcement of incoming changes or I would have made them already.

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Can't you just put Kidney and Cheap Shots on the same DR?

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Q u o t e:


That's right, you tell GC.

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I will, thanks, that's what these forums are for.