World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way"

Kahran

< Chimera >

Durotan

180. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 11:26:54 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Their longevity cannot out last a paladin, is what I meant by that. Every CoH priest I have run with always says "WTB Divine Plea". I'm pretty sure all priests would love this talent. I do see your point about the balance issue, but CoH priests are getting the CD which will bring down their healing meters alot.

I would say that being within 100k of a holy paladin at the end of a single target fight that consumes millions of healing qualifies as lasting just as long. Whatever means they employ to keep their mana up to do so is irrelevant.

Specifically the numbers were:

Paladin 678,032
Priest 502, 496

See how close that is on a paladin niche fight?

But then you have something like Malygos, a priest niche fight:

Priest 763,991
Paladin 141,343

See how completely unbalanced it is? Being specialized and better at something means you can't do it as well as the other class, within 80%, it doesn't mean you can't do it at all. That should means if a priest can do 500k healing single target on a long fight where a paladin is doing 600-700k, then a paladin should be able to do 500-600k healing on a fight where CoH does 800k.

If we turned the current balance around, so that CoH priests healed single target as bad as we heal on CoH fights, Greater Heal would have to cost 5000 mana and heal for 1000 health and have a cast time three times as long as holy light to be just as bad at single target as we are at AoE.

That one way street is a major source of contention.

[ Post edited by Kahran ]

Kahran

< Chimera >

Durotan

181. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 11:38:01 AM PST

Following up on previous post, lets get a better picture of what CoH is doing to the other healers.

Taken at three wings down (didn't finish due to the lag and DC's that went on Tuesday night):

Priest

9,532,129 effective out of 16,810,577 raw

Paladin

7,410,275 effective out of 27,831,276 raw

That should make ANY healer cry himself to sleep at night and counting the days until CoH gets a cooldown.

Shamans have it worst of all, their sole intended purpose is AE healing, and their cast times are longer than ours. Sucks to spend almost 3 seconds casting, and watch everyone be 100% by the time your heal even gets close to landing. With CoH bombs going off left and right it's like playing russian roulette, and hoping that the person you healed, and who gets topped off mid-cast, will take another damage spike just before your heal finishes.

[ Post edited by Kahran ]

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

182. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 11:42:53 AM PST

Q u o t e:
GC will probably never read this, but I will post my idea here anyway.

I read all of these threads.

There is a continuum with “I can’t heal this encounter” here, and <-------------------------------------------------> “all classes have the same abilities” here. We need for “bring the player not the class” to fall somewhere in the middle without cozying up too close to either extreme.

Q u o t e:
GC there are only 2 heroic instances where I will take a druid, shaman, priests above a paladin healer. Heroic Halls of Lightning and Heroic Halls of Stone. I'm not saying paladins can't do it, I'm saying its easier with one of the other healers.

Sure, and a paladin probably is a better healer on Patchwerk than a druid. It only gets to be a problem, in our eyes, if the paladin struggles so much to heal that paladins have trouble getting groups or you start to see “LF1M healer – no pallies." I’m sure people will respond that on THEIR server that happens all the time, but overall we don’t think it’s a problem. Yet.

Heroic Loken is hard. He’s the hardest heroic boss. Having a priest may make the encounter easier, but it doesn’t make it tirival and having a paladin doesn’t mean you are almost certainly doomed to fail. Honestly it has a lot more to do with what the rest of the group is doing to minimize the damage they take than what the healer has to do to keep everyone up.

Malygos is a slightly different situation. We kept amping up the damage of Vortex because CoH and WG could just easily heal through it. We finally decided those two spells were just OP and pushing priests and druids into just relying on that one spell too much. With the cooldown on COH and WG we will probably nerf the Vortex. I say probably because players are farming the encounter already so I’m not 100% that things will go from farm to impossible with this change, but we’ll be sure to test it out a lot and watch for your feedback.

But I wouldn’t turn this into (another) thread on CoH and WG. I would focus instead on whether paladins have the tools they need, especially for 5-player heroics.

Kahran

< Chimera >

Durotan

183. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 11:47:10 AM PST

We most definately have the tools for 5 mans. I find heroic Loken quite a rush, basically it's like

"yeah I'm a paladin, yeah I can heal this no problem, but don't be stupid and just stand there, and you have until I am OOM with all regen cooldowns expended to kill him"

However the skill curve that differentiates a great paladin from a bad one, is much much MUCH steeper compared to the difference between a great priest and a bad one. A great paladin can heal Loken. A great priest can heal Loken. A bad priest can heal Loken. A bad paladin cannot.

PS: My gear is good now, but I leveled as ret in level 70 gear to level 80, and returned to Holy to do heroics. I healed all the heroics successfully in my level 70 T6 gear, arguably inferior to level 80 blues in many cases. The only thing I struggled with was relying on DPS time for my mana longevity; to be expected wearing gear 10 levels too low.

[ Post edited by Kahran ]

Xcentrik

< Revolution >

Bloodhoof

184. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 11:47:54 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Why? It's pointless. Maybe in a 10 man where there is only 1 other healer, but for the most part, it's really not a good way to view "who's better at healing."

If we all had the same spells, all healed for the same amount, had everything else equal, then yes, you can see who is better. But this is not the case. Druids differer from shaman's who differ from priests who differe from paladins. Like I said earlier, if we all had the same tools, then blizzard should just due away with "classes" and just make Tank spec, DPS spec, or Heal spec"

Only that priests/shamans/druids ALL have AoE healing spell and ONLY paladins DO NOT! Is it really that cumbersome to design a new AoE healing spell that would actually fit our healing style and be different than what the other 3 healing classes have?... If it is so much about being different? But for us not having an AoE healing spell when an entire raid takes damage simply makes us useless, this is exactly the word, useless. By the time I cast my third flash of light the priests brought an entire raid up in a matter of seconds and there, sigh and go back to spamming the tank… It’s not fun, it’s annoying, it’s poor design.

Wowman

< Carnage >

Destromath

185. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 11:51:13 AM PST

Q u o t e:

But I wouldn’t turn this into (another) thread on CoH and WG. I would focus instead on whether paladins have the tools they need, especially for 5-player heroics.

as far as 5 man heroics and 10 man (with the exception to malygos) yes, we do.

I don't how much you're going to nerf the vortex with 10 man, but having 2 paladin healers makes this fight pretty much impossible. Now I dont know if this is a bug or not, but when we get shot up in the vortex (malygos 10 man), I throw beacon on someone in range, and holy shock someone else, I have noticed a lot of the time, the beacon doesn't hit the player I casted it upon. I'm not sure if this is a bug, or because as players are swirrling around, they actually do go out of range, but my heal meters dont show them out of range. Wasn't sure abut this.

As far as the CoH vs WG > paladin healing, COH IS GETTING A CD. So, you're statements about it being OP'd are going to be void very shortly. Hence the reason I stated earlier that the priests forums are blowing up about them not being useful to any raid or healing anymore. Nefs happen, players need to learn to adapt and trust that blizzard will tune the encounters to fit the nerfs or buffs.

Tokov

< unGankable >

Gorefiend

186. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 11:53:49 AM PST

The tools we have for 5 man heroics are workable, but necessarily crude and unwieldy. Just because it's possible to make something work, doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved.

As it is, some heroic fights require much more skill from a paladin than the other healing classes, yet there is no opposite example where a given fight is much harder for another healer than a paladin.

I'm not going to comment on 25 man content yet because I haven't done enough to provide useful feedback.

[ Post edited by Tokov ]

Wowman

< Carnage >

Destromath

187. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 11:55:12 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Only that priests/shamans/druids ALL have AoE healing spell and ONLY paladins DO NOT! Is it really that cumbersome to design a new AoE healing spell that would actually fit our healing style and be different than what the other 3 healing classes have?... If it is so much about being different? But for us not having an AoE healing spell when an entire raid takes damage simply makes us useless, this is exactly the word, useless. By the time I cast my third flash of light the priests brought an entire raid up in a matter of seconds and there, sigh and go back to spamming the tank… It’s not fun, it’s annoying, it’s poor design.

I feel you're very wrong.
Example was posted above, but I'll repost it.

Assuming you know the fight and know when AoE damage will happen,

cast beacon upon player X
precast FoL on player Y, holy shock just after, Instant FoL or 1 second HL to player X, Y recieves that much as well. Hoping you have the holy light glyph you now have the chance for splash heal crits to happen all over your screen. Oh, dont forget about Judgement of light either, 300+ healing is always nice to help out group aoe damage.

Use the tools provided and stop wanting what every other class has.

CoH hits only 5 at a time, not an etire raid. ITS GETTING A CD, so very soon, no longer will they have the 1 button i win button they have now for raid damage.

Xcentrik

< Revolution >

Bloodhoof

188. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:00:01 PM PST

Q u o t e:

I feel you're very wrong.
Example was posted above, but I'll repost it.

Assuming you know the fight and know when AoE damage will happen,

cast beacon upon player X
precast FoL on player Y, holy shock just after, Instant FoL or 1 second HL to player X, Y recieves that much as well. Hoping you have the holy light glyph you now have the chance for splash heal crits to happen all over your screen. Oh, dont forget about Judgement of light either, 300+ healing is always nice to help out group aoe damage.

Use the tools provided and stop wanting what every other class has.

CoH hits only 5 at a time, not an etire raid. ITS GETTING A CD, so very soon, no longer will they have the 1 button i win button they have now for raid damage.

It is yet to be seen the nerf on CoH, priests are QQing so much they might convince the devs CoH cannot be nerfed. In an encounter with 2-3 holy priests and 1-2 druids in raid , trust me, 5 bacons if you had can't bring your effective healing nearly what the smart heals do.

Kahran

< Chimera >

Durotan

189. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:01:40 PM PST

Q u o t e:

CoH hits only 5 at a time, not an etire raid. ITS GETTING A CD, so very soon, no longer will they have the 1 button i win button they have now for raid damage.

This I imagine will fix things. Paladins and shamans will be able to contribute with chain heals and holy lights that won't be 100% overheal in between CoH cooldowns and not look so bad.

Sloshenstein

< Arctic Wrath >

Drenden

190. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:02:17 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I would focus instead on whether paladins have the tools they need, especially for 5-player heroics.

Why does this restriction need to exist (5-player heroics)?

I understand classes having different strengths, but I have yet to see WWS report from our guild where a Holy Pally beat a LESSER geared priest/shaman in 10 man Naxx; not to mention those that are equally geared.

These are pallies that healed Sunwell. They aren't scrubs compared to the other healers. In fact, 2 of our healers (a shaman and a priest) have NEVER healed a raid encounter past Kara. For the shaman, he's never healed before WotLK. They are EASILY beating a better geared pally that's been Holy since he started playing the game.

You might not be seeing "LF1M healer -- no pallies", but already I'm starting to hear guildies saying, "Ya, it's much easier without a holy pally." You can't make that claim for any dps or tank at the moment (now that every tank can AoE tank easily).

Pallies are at the bottom of the list -- a list with a clear separation between the first three and 4th. It's blatant.

Why is it that since it's not technically impossible it's not viewed as something that needs to be fixed? Warriors could AoE tank before 3.0. Sure, it was hard as hell. But you could still manage Heroic Magisters.

So why were all tanks given better AoE threat abilities and yet pallies are the only healer that doesn't have an AoE heal?

Drayton

< Acies >

Sentinels

191. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:10:03 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Heroic Loken is hard. He’s the hardest heroic boss. Having a priest may make the encounter easier, but it doesn’t make it tirival and having a paladin doesn’t mean you are almost certainly doomed to fail. Honestly it has a lot more to do with what the rest of the group is doing to minimize the damage they take than what the healer has to do to keep everyone up.

QFT. The only holy pallies screaming for an AoE heal are the bad ones.

Kahran

< Chimera >

Durotan

192. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:10:21 PM PST

Q u o t e:

It is yet to be seen the nerf on CoH, priests are QQing so much they might convince the devs CoH cannot be nerfed. In an encounter with 2-3 holy priests and 1-2 druids in raid , trust me, 5 bacons if you had can't bring your effective healing nearly what the smart heals do.

What makes CoH OP is the combination of all things in one heal, and the fact that it can be spammed, and enough gear and innervate stacking to make mana longevity trivial. One thing needs to be removed to reign it in.

It needs to have the smart heal removed, the instant cast removed, or a cooldown added. It must be one of those three things.

Smart heal won't be removed because dissolving the group distinction has high priority and group only severely limits it's usefulness, esp when people are spread out as a 25 man raid and not in groups of 5.

Instant cast won't be removed because the versatility of a instant cast AE emergency button that can automatically save 6 people from the verge of death because they lagged behind in the void zone as the entire raid was moving, is a unique priest ability.

That leaves a cooldown. There are no adverse affects to having a cooldown other than it cannot be spammed and cannot completely monopolize all healing and make content trivial. The only thing it really hurts is e-peens.

With a cooldown, the disproportionate representation of CoH in raids will come down, while the other healers, having plenty to do in between those cooldowns, will rise. Hopefully this evens everyone out.

[ Post edited by Kahran ]

Brewguzzler

Gul'dan

193. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:12:41 PM PST

Q u o t e:
QFT. The only holy pallies screaming for an AoE heal are the bad ones.

The Dwarf above you makes a valid point. I really doubt he's a bad player.

Lives

< Synergy >

Shadowsong

194. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:13:26 PM PST

Q u o t e:
QFT. The only holy pallies screaming for an AoE heal are the bad ones.

Truth. People need to stop complaining about how paladins aren't good at healing anything. A single specific healing class isn't supposed to top meters every time. There are strengths and weaknesses for every fight. If you are a good healer, you expect and know when to heal properly. Pre-casts and using your abilities properly.

Q u o t e:

I would focus instead on whether paladins have the tools they need, especially for 5-player heroics.

Paladins have the right tools. My only concern is the battle with GCD's and when to properly use my rotations. Patchwerk is a big battle for example. Also relating to 5-mans Heroic HoL. I usually resort to spamming Holy Light, Beaconing myself, and occasionally Sacred Shielding. As a paladin, stay ranged, and try not to not move a whole lot. Judgement of Light helps.

[ Post edited by Lives ]

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Koll

< Tupan Techno >

Lightbringer

195. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:18:13 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Why does this restriction need to exist (5-player heroics)?

Well, cooldowns are about ot go in for CoH and WG so there's gonna be some upheaval on raid healing. 5-man feedback would be more valuable right now.

Q u o t e:
I understand classes having different strengths, but I have yet to see WWS report from our guild where a Holy Pally beat a LESSER geared priest/shaman in 10 man Naxx; not to mention those that are equally geared.

These are pallies that healed Sunwell. They aren't scrubs compared to the other healers. In fact, 2 of our healers (a shaman and a priest) have NEVER healed a raid encounter past Kara. For the shaman, he's never healed before WotLK. They are EASILY beating a better geared pally that's been Holy since he started playing the game.

:/ Our holy paladin doing really well, on par and beating shamans here and there. I've been playing with him for a long time and he's getting a blast out of raid healing right now. He says it's really great compared to what sunwell was.

Q u o t e:
You might not be seeing "LF1M healer -- no pallies", but already I'm starting to hear guildies saying, "Ya, it's much easier without a holy pally."

They say it's easier without a pally? Yuo're sure they don't say it's easier with a priest or with a druid?

Q u o t e:

Why is it that since it's not technically impossible it's not viewed as something that needs to be fixed? Warriors could AoE tank before 3.0. Sure, it was hard as hell. But you could still manage Heroic Magisters.

So why were all tanks given better AoE threat abilities and yet pallies are the only healer that doesn't have an AoE heal?

Because they have huge spells on low cast times that can cover for much of the aoe healing needed.

Potmaster Koll - 0/14/57 - Alchemy 420 [Potion]

Drayton

< Acies >

Sentinels

196. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:18:37 PM PST

Q u o t e:
The Dwarf above you makes a valid point. I really doubt he's a bad player.

Holy Pallies absolutely shine in 10 man Naxx. It's like Kara all over again. We don't start to fall behind until 25 man raids & only then if more healers are brought than necessary for an encounter.

Sloshenstein

< Arctic Wrath >

Drenden

198. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:28:27 PM PST

Q u o t e:
They say it's easier without a pally? Yuo're sure they don't say it's easier with a priest or with a druid?

Yes -- they're saying it's easier without a pally. Throw any other healing class at it, and they'll probably 1-shot it. Throw a pally at it and they'll probably wipe a couple times.

I don't believe that pallies are incapable of healing the heroics. I simply believe that the task is drastically more difficult.

No other class or spec has this problem. No tank; no dps; no other healer. Ask any of them to perform their role and each one can do it with little difficulty. None of them are tasked with something that is as tough as asking a pally to heal AoE damage.

It's the scale of difficulty that I find wrong. If it were equally challenging for all healers (or close to), then you've designed the classes/encounters well.

If it's easy for 3 of the classes and extremely difficult 1? There's a problem.

Please show me a fight where a shaman, druid, or priest "struggles" to heal the MT like a pally struggles to heal AoE. Until that balance is fixed, something's wrong.

Arianne

< The Coalition >

Lightbringer

199. Re: Fixing Holy pallies the "Blizzard Way" 12/05/2008 12:31:52 PM PST

My guild doesn't have any paladin healers (they seem to have mostly disappeared) so I end up running a lot with a druid healer or a shaman healer. With either of those we do well and finish most instances with no wipes or deaths (they're both skilled healers).

I also have found a paladin healer from another guild that tends to run instances at the same time I do and I've done several heroics over several days with him. He does an excellent job and I never die, but often we'll have random DPS deaths (or sometimes he'll die from AoE effects after using bubble) because he just can't heal everyone through everything. This has never fully wiped the group, but it's an example of where an EXCELLENT pally healer just can't keep up. Violet Hold (consortium guy), some of the poison packs in OK (even though I was cleansing), Anub'rekhan, Telestra, Loken, Ionar as some examples of bosses.

I've also run with several other paladin healers when I was ret where I was partially brought along so that I could help heal. I was expected to take care of myself and help heal the other DPSers. That hasn't been the case with any other healer type.

On the other hand, with my guild really wants a paladin healer for 25 mans because they're really useful in a 25 man situation.

To: Kil'jaeden
RE: 25 Annoying People

I put my parasites on that... can't find good help these days. My devilishly good looks (no one can resist my eyes) usually takes care of that.

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