I can't post on my toon now as I just transferred him, but I have a Priest in a guild that sported top-notch, excellent players at every position. At our peak, 2/3rds of our raid were Gladiators, and the other 1/3rd were very, very disappointed and ashamed Duelists. We just came back together again to raid in the xpac.

If we go back in time, there was a period in time where Holy Priests were just terrible. Nothing worth stacking, no heal worth mentioning, etc... I was brought because Priest gear had to go somewhere, but the guild would've been better served bringing another Druid/Shaman and letting some SPriest Fort buff the raid.

So, why do you justify the static (your game/classes/abilities at any given time) with the dynamic (the skill of the individual player)? How does that quote fit into that example- when every player is an A+? Tell me why I should bring underperforming classes played by excellent players if I can just bring another excellent player playing a overperforming class?

I'm a little unclear at what you're getting at here.

Would it be a problem if the very top, highly optimising guilds still put very careful planning into raid composition and class balance? Would it be a problem if, at the same time, a guild that was some months behind could get by with whoever they had online that night?

Is the issue that certain classes are used less frequently by super-elite guilds? Is it that too many people are wanting to play their preferred class or spec, rather than want might be required by a perfect raid composition? Is it that balance is not perfect enough that each class has not yet become indistinguishable from each other?

are you addressing this just to healing classes or to all classes?

We reformed for expansion, so we...kept the very best of most of our classes. ATM, there is a limit to what we bring of each class. almost never more than 1 resto druid (we've brought 2 once), 2 holy pals, 1-2 resto sham, and the rest priests. Given the current content, there's just no real reason to bring more than one resto druid imo. (i'm sorry if you disagree, but this is my opinion as a healer, healing officer, and raid leader. though it does help we only really have 1 resto druid raider and he has >95% attendance)

In terms of dps classes, we often have to tell certain players to step it up. But we're trying to wait until everyone is fully geared to make judgement calls before kicking/recuiting for weak classes/players.

As far as min/maxing the class matters assuming the players are of equal skill. But the difference is so small and it is too hard to calculate skill that most of the time this doesn't matter.

I guess I posted it here because that was a healing situation we came across in the last expansion, and I'm sure it'll come up again. It always does.

I'm just saying that "bring the player" only works when you have players of different skill levels. When you have no bad players (or mediocre ones), the class and spec alone matters. Right now there's no reason to bring a Rogue, and we bring one Resto Druid because we wouldn't know what to do with the leather pieces. If we really cared about content (LOL STEAMROLLED), we might just sit them.

Saying "bring the player" has nothing to do with class design. Yet, from what I understand, Blizzard is using it to justify some classes performance in raiding. Am I mistaken?

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Q u o t e:
I guess I posted it here because that was a healing situation we came across in the last expansion, and I'm sure it'll come up again. It always does.

I'm just saying that "bring the player" only works when you have players of different skill levels. When you have no bad players (or mediocre ones), the class and spec alone matters. Right now there's no reason to bring a Rogue, and we bring one Resto Druid because we wouldn't know what to do with the leather pieces. If we really cared about content (LOL STEAMROLLED), we might just sit them.

Saying "bring the player" has nothing to do with class design. Yet, from what I understand, Blizzard is using it to justify some classes performance in raiding. Am I mistaken?

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I totally understand what you are saying. If you had an excellently played elemental shaman and an excellently played hunter, you would be crazy to take the elemental shaman. This is considering all the buffs are covered and you are looking at it from a pure raid dps point of view. Why gimp the raid by 2k dps?

As gear is upgraded and certain talents scale even greater than they are now this will become an even bigger issue with some classes. Not sure how rogues will scale with gear, but as was shown in BC, some classes like shadow priests just didn't get much better at a certain level.

The top guilds have mainly great players and some excess of people ready to go. So they don't have to pick by player - they pick by the best class for that fight just like sunwell. Of course content needs to be hard enough for them to not 3 shot things before that happens.

Our guild is currently on malygos, and we have managed to clear everything up to him without having a windfury buff. Not too much min/maxing going on because we haven't hit a wall to force it. Even malygos doesn't require real min/maxing - though we still have too many who don't know how to control the dragons so we are giving them the weekend to work it out.

People will be bringing classes based on individual fights if the fights are hard enough. Nuff said.

I think you are misunderstanding "bring the player". I don't think it means that all classes will be exactly equal. What it means is that there shouldn't be any 1 buff that only 1 class can provide that is so vital that groups have to take a crappy player to get it over a better or more available player who doesn't have it.

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I think you are misunderstanding "bring the player". I don't think it means that all classes will be exactly equal. What it means is that there shouldn't be any 1 buff that only 1 class can provide that is so vital that groups have to take a crappy player to get it over a better or more available player who doesn't have it.

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Ah, I understand now. It certainly used to be like that in regards to Bloodlust and Battle Rez, but I think the "crappy player vs good player" is definitely taking the extreme just to prove the point. It's always more/less "take the mediocre player over the good player." I can't think of any examples now in regards to class abilities, but I think the other side of the coin should be examined in my example in the OP. Remember, Holy Priests were shelved (for over a year CoH QQrs) because they didn't have anything that made them stand out.

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Q u o t e:
I think you are misunderstanding "bring the player". I don't think it means that all classes will be exactly equal. What it means is that there shouldn't be any 1 buff that only 1 SPEC can provide that is so vital that groups have to take a crappy player to get it over a better or more available player who doesn't have it.

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Fixed for accuracy. Technically there is enough overlapping skills you don't need it. This in inaccurate in my eyes - If you don't have a DK tank YOU must have a enh shaman if you are pushing difficult content. We have convinced a blood DK to go raid buff spec due to not having an enh shaman. If we didn't have that then a scubby enh shaman would lead to higher raid dps then an overpowered good hunter just due to raid buffs and we'd take the shaman if dps was an issue.

Edit: In terms of healers I think the only class people feel they need at least 2 of is shaman's for buffs. And that is only if you lack other shaman's in the raid. Pallies still have a crazy number of buffs which could also lead to 2 healadins in the absense of ret/protadins. Not having a ret pally in a 25 man is a mistake imo due to the power of Judgement of Light.

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Q u o t e:
Fixed for accuracy. Technically there is enough overlapping skills you don't need it. This in inaccurate in my eyes - If you don't have a DK tank YOU must have a enh shaman if you are pushing difficult content. We have convinced a blood DK to go raid buff spec due to not having an enh shaman. If we didn't have that then a scubby enh shaman would lead to higher raid dps then an overpowered good hunter just due to raid buffs and we'd take the shaman if dps was an issue.

Edit: In terms of healers I think the only class people feel they need at least 2 of is shaman's for buffs. And that is only if you lack other shaman's in the raid. Pallies still have a crazy number of buffs which could also lead to 2 healadins in the absense of ret/protadins. Not having a ret pally in a 25 man is a mistake imo due to the power of Judgement of Light.

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Hey now, don't take away my Judgement of Light! To hell with ret paladins, I get haste from judging!

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Q u o t e:
Fixed for accuracy. Technically there is enough overlapping skills you don't need it. This in inaccurate in my eyes - If you don't have a DK tank YOU must have a enh shaman if you are pushing difficult content. We have convinced a blood DK to go raid buff spec due to not having an enh shaman. If we didn't have that then a scubby enh shaman would lead to higher raid dps then an overpowered good hunter just due to raid buffs and we'd take the shaman if dps was an issue.

Edit: In terms of healers I think the only class people feel they need at least 2 of is shaman's for buffs. And that is only if you lack other shaman's in the raid. Pallies still have a crazy number of buffs which could also lead to 2 healadins in the absense of ret/protadins. Not having a ret pally in a 25 man is a mistake imo due to the power of Judgement of Light.

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You could use a trueshot aura too. Most buffs have about 3 ways to be provided, some not requiring a particular spec. For the ratio of specs/raidspots, making a viable raid is lot esier than it was.

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Q u o t e:
You could use a trueshot aura too. Most buffs have about 3 ways to be provided, some not requiring a particular spec. For the ratio of specs/raidspots, making a viable raid is lot esier than it was.

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It is much better then it was. Trueshot aura + resto shaman dropping Str of Earth and Windfury is not a huge loss over neither.

We are having an issue of all our shaman and druids being resto because two shamans rerolled DK - no 5% crit buff for me - er the casters.

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I'm not sure we could ever nail the balance of the game so perfectly that even the most cutting edge raiding guilds would bring the player not the class.

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haha, that would be amazing, but is impossible as long as encounters are diverse and classes aren't* completely homogeneous.

I think the buff requirements are massively improved - paladin are the exception (my people will hang me for this) - kings, BoW and Sanc are 3 unique class/spec buffs. I know disc priests have grace - but grace is on a single target and falls off during the most dire times, when the whole raid is stunned and such and takes massive damage. Sanc also boosts tank damage/threat by massive amounts - meaning when that time comes that you spoke of - where tank threat will be an issue - won't sanc become the new windfury?

*edited typo

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Q u o t e:
I can't post on my toon now as I just transferred him, but I have a Priest in a guild that sported top-notch, excellent players at every position. At our peak, 2/3rds of our raid were Gladiators, and the other 1/3rd were very, very disappointed and ashamed Duelists. We just came back together again to raid in the xpac.

If we go back in time, there was a period in time where Holy Priests were just terrible. Nothing worth stacking, no heal worth mentioning, etc... I was brought because Priest gear had to go somewhere, but the guild would've been better served bringing another Druid/Shaman and letting some SPriest Fort buff the raid.

So, why do you justify the static (your game/classes/abilities at any given time) with the dynamic (the skill of the individual player)? How does that quote fit into that example- when every player is an A+? Tell me why I should bring underperforming classes played by excellent players if I can just bring another excellent player playing a overperforming class?

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I agree with GC in that they can't balance it that perfectly with so many variables and even luck so that the guilds that look for a 1dps difference will 'bring the player not the player'.

Here's something I do find it interesting though. Are the people QQing about raid balance gonna be like that guild? Are they re-gemming/re-enchanting for every boss? Are they sitting out in their mains and swapped over per boss? Are they willing to sit out in front of the raid instance and buff people if the raid demands it?

I dunno, it seems like they want to be brought for their class still without the other stuff that the hardcore guilds do since its 'inconvenient' for them.

Who cares about what the top guilds do if you're not in one of them?

And if you are, you probably don't really care much for class balance either. The top guilds will bring both the player and the class because their members will reroll to whatever class is needed at any given moment (and do so in a week's time).

Most top end guilds swap players out for PvE encounters anyways. It will always stay in effect. I agree, you only need one true resto druid.

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Q u o t e:
idk what your smokin or when priests were bad. In my guild pre BC that we took all the way from MC to clearing naxx, we always stacked priests. Priests were far and away the best healer, we took pallys for blessings and FOL also. In our nax raid we had a MAX of 2 druids any given time, while we had about 8 or 9 priests because simply put they were far better and having any druids in those spots would gimp the raid. So please at least support what you are saying.

If you are refering to BC, COH>you.

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Every top guild that could get five quality shammies ran five shammies. You stacked heroisms like nothing else. Priests were the worst healer through early content then that designation switched to pallies in Sunwell.

I like both my shammy and my priest, but for utility the shammy wins hands down.