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  • Steamwheedle Cartel
  • 320. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 10:59:42 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
How will this affect MM hunters?
Not nearly as harshly as it will affect BM, especially those of us that weave Aimed.

Engineering: The Forgotten Profession


Q u o t e:
You're a rogue. We can't trust you. We'll have to lend to you at subprime rates.
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  • 321. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 10:59:48 AM PST
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Hang on.

This came about because good Hunters could out-damage the other classes? When did we start measuring the need for corrective updates based on the accomplishments of the top 1%? Is there any incentive toward excellence in a system that responds punitively to success?

A good mage is a match for a good hunter in PvE settings. Mages aren't being nerfed because being an average mage is fairly simple, but there's no such thing as an average Hunter. We're either really good, or really bad. Rather than match up averages, Blizzard seems to have chosen to focus on the elite of the Hunter class to benchmark against the average Mage. This is bad statistical analysis.
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Ghostcrawler
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  • 322. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 10:59:54 AM PST
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I did say these are not all the hunter changes we're working on. Some we haven't quite worked out yet and others (one exciting one in particular concerning ammo) won't be ready until Ulduar or so.

We think MM was too high and BM was way too high. Survival is probably a little low. We are looking at buffing Survival, possibly through Explosive Shot, but we haven't finalized that yet.

The Deterrence change is defintely something we'll need to see in action on the PTR.

I don't want to do a disservice to all the good PvP feedback by attempting to boil it down too much. However, in general a lot of hunters were concerned about being able to do damage as much as they were concerned about being able to survive damage. We don't expect the Deterrence change to solve the former problem obviously. We're still working on that one, but we wanted to go ahead and announce what changes we have now so that you guys can be chewing on them.

Nerfing classes is never fun. It means that our initial tests and estimates didn't play out in the real world, which is a failing on our part, not anything the players did wrong. While buffing is a lot more fun, we think we'd get to crazy land too quickly by trying to make current BM dps the new benchmark. That would mean touching virtually every other class and spec as well as many encounters. While it might produce more positive PR in the short-term, it's a ton more work in the long-term that we would rather spend on new content or other problem areas.

Also, the sky is not falling. We're posting here so we can get feedback. Threats of rerolling or that sort of melodrama aren't really giving us any information we need. I can understand while you might want to vent a little bit, but posts with nothing but QQ aren't helpful. :)
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  • 323. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:00:08 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


Oh, I may have misinterpreted that then, sorry. Yeah if we can get stunned we're pretty boned then :/ It's just the kidney shot and HoJ that I'm worried about, doesn't look like it'll be deflecting either of those. I retract my previous statement.


The more I read through the lines the worse and worse this new deterrence looks :/



GC

The steady shot change is going to be too much everyone can easily see that.

The rest of the DPS nerfs seem understandable.

As far as Deterrence goes it has to be 360 and since we can still be stunned/controlled while using it I really don't see why we shouldn't be able to still attack during it.

At first when I read too fast and thought it was a reflect it would mean we were still doing damage to our opponents (even though only if they attacked us) that balanced out.

That might be one that needs to go back to the drawing boards.

We either need to be able to attack through it or have it actually "reflect" damage.

[ Post edited by Levidia ]


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  • Kil'jaeden
  • 324. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:00:12 AM PST
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You went overboard on the PvE damage nerfs. I love the way you take your moderation approach when it comes to providing buffs, but you'll absolutely gut a class w/ nerfs.

The deterrence thing is horrible... a facing requirement AND we can't attack? It doesn't even address the main problem... our inability to get back to range from melee. If you want to buff something to make it worthwhile, give disengage a root or snare effect while removing snares on yourself and put it on a shorter cooldown. Its pretty obvious the skill is missing -something-

[ Post edited by Arithe ]

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  • Laughing Skull
  • 325. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:00:14 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


50% spell resist and melee miss for 12 seconds while still letting us attack is vastly different than 100% deflect for 5 seconds where WE CAN NOT ATTACK.

It's basically a short iceblock that lets us keep moving but it doesn't scrub any debuffs/dots (those will keep doing damage)


I'm aware of what it is...it's 100% chance to not get insta-gibbed during a CS/fear etc. Yes, you can't attack but you mostly aren't in those situations anyway (stuns/locked down).

Believe me, I was there with everyone trying to get changes made because they made sense. I'm sure you recognize the name in my signature. Personally I would rather have 5 seconds of pure immunity every minute that I can use as a reactionary skill to focus fire swaps than something that may or may not allow us to live through FF where we can easily be stunned and lose any dodge/parry we had gained from deterrence...and spells still have a good chance of getting through.

It's obviously a preference thing. Of course there is the grass is always greener thing too.

-edit- Oh, and i'm sure you can click the buff off if necessary.

[ Post edited by Krueger ]


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  • Exodar
  • 326. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:00:16 AM PST
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Ghostcrawler, I just wanted to tell you that your changes are retarded. Here's why:

1. MM and SV dps is lacking as compared to BM. Nerfing SS hurts them as well, and its not needed. WWS parses don't show MM/SV trumping mages, warriors, warlocks, rogues
2. BM is now officially crap - there is absolutely nothing left in this spec except for the *@!@ty 51 point lolpet.
3. You wanted all classes to have respectable AoE damage- how else is a hunter supposed to be competitive?
4. Where are the pvp buffs? Rogues got dismantle, where's the fking hunter love? The least you could have done is made deterrence a 5 second cheat death.

Is deterrence going to be usable while stunned?

[ Post edited by Nerfmepls ]

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  • 327. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:00:33 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


Oh, I may have misinterpreted that then, sorry. Yeah if we can get stunned we're pretty boned then :/ It's just the kidney shot and HoJ that I'm worried about, doesn't look like it'll be deflecting either of those. I retract my previous statement.


Oh don't be taking my word for gospel either. *grin* I don't know how it's going to end up being coded, just saying that the way it's worded leaves plenty of different possibilities.
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  • 328. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:00:44 AM PST
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In the interests of staying brief:

1) SS nerf is way too high. It's a bread and butter for all hunter specs across the board. Take this change out and see how well damage scales down with the other changes. BW/readiness was a ridiculous spec and removing that alone should give you some good results. Kindred spirits and serpent swiftness will also do a lot to nerf pet damage, and PET damage is exactly where the nerf should be.

2) Rake/scorpid poison nerf-Scorpids are not ferocity pets and should not be putting out tons of damage. That's fair. Cats, on the other hand, are one of the most iconic and well loved pet classes. I'm 51 deep in BM right now and kept my cat over a devilsaur or corehound because I like them much more. Please ensure that a rake nerf does not force us into taking devilsaurs or corehounds to be competitive. Alternately, please make some of the other possible spirit beast-type animals (cursed offspring of harkoa, Blackmaw) available to tame so that we're not stuck with the awfulness of trying to get Loque'nahak.

3) Please keep in mind that hunters have always scaled exceedingly well with levels compared to other classes, which scale better with gear. By scale, I mean our damage output increases a lot when we and our pets level and it increases less with gear. This is different than, say, a warrior or rogue whose damage increase is minimal with a level, but huge with a new weapon. We got hit hard when TBC released under similar circumstances, and spent a lot of time playing catch up. Don't be hasty and put us in a similar position.

Thanks.
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  • The Venture Co
  • 330. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:01:33 AM PST
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So how about that 41-pt Survival talent?
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  • 331. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:01:35 AM PST
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Q u o t e:

4) Deterrence – has been completely overhauled. It now allows you to deflect 100% of incoming melee or spell damage for 5 seconds, but prevents you from attacking while active. You still must be facing the attacker to deflect the damage (this is a limitation we are trying and might end up removing). 60 sec cooldown.
7) Serpent’s Swiftness – now only grants 2/4/6/8/10% bonus attack speed to pet.
10) Call of the Wild – now benefits only the hunter and his or her pet.


I can deal with the others but I don't agree with these ones.

Why can't deterrence go back to what was originally planned? A 25% dodge and parry increase along with 60% magic damage reduction. This seems a bit too much to setup overall.

You already take damage away from the pet with Kindred Spirtis so why with a nerf on Serpent's Swiftness. I personally feel only one or the other because both combined significantly reduces pet damage. EDIT: Does this also mean the hunter itself no longer gets a speed increase? If that's the case you've really shot BM in the foot

Why take that away from Call of the Wild? This is a nerf to those melee and ranged benefiting from it. Much like that 10% armor increase on raid bosses.

Overall my hope is that at least half of these don't make it through and that you're going to an extreme so that you know where the middle ground is.

[ Post edited by Sonvar ]


"Thats the second biggest duck I've ever had in my pants" - Guybrush Threepwood
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  • 332. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:01:50 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
Says who? All GC said was "deflects 100% of melee and spell damage". Plenty of non-damaging stuns out there.


You mean like when a rogue saps you from behind?

/shrug. Guess we see how it all plays out. GC has said in the past that his reputation is on the line when it comes to class balance, specifically when it came to Hunters, and admitted if he screwed it up, the Hunter community would be happy to throw it back in his face.

Oh well. At least we won't hear people complaining daily about Hunter DPS after these hit the live realms.

"The Marktwainasaur will haunt your nightmares!" --Rizz
"Let's just kill them with bacon monsters." --Tolstoy
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  • Steamwheedle Cartel
  • 333. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:02:03 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
Why don't you hunters just come out and say what you really want...
Okay.

Competitive DPS in all three specs that is roughly on par with pure DPS classes (Mage/Warlock/Rogue) and roughly 10-15% ahead of hybrid-but-DPS-speccable classes (Warrior/Druid/Shaman/Priest/Paladin), as well as all Ferocity pets being balanced together to be roughly equal in DPS.

Engineering: The Forgotten Profession


Q u o t e:
You're a rogue. We can't trust you. We'll have to lend to you at subprime rates.
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  • 334. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:02:05 AM PST
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Q u o t e:


Oh I agree entirely that against melee this will behave almost identically to the original deterrence. But casters tend to be further away and cannot exploit your backside. (I want to patent the phrase exploit your backside btw) I mean the ability to negate a hex or root etc could have potentially profound impact.


Well that assumes it will actually negate those effects. It specifies damage immunity only right now. But here is to hoping. However since we can't do any damage we are to a large degree CC'd anyways. And while some casters will have a harder time "exploiting our backside(tm)" (will pay to not have my backside exploited) mages probably will have less of a problem. Also I wonder if AoE's will count as "from the front". Probably not.

So really it is nothing special. It probably does not remove CC, or grant immunity to CC as I am sure they would have stated that. It has some real benefit against a single ranged target who doesn't have a blink (for 5 seconds anyways) but not much else.

I think you can see there could be many potentially significant limitations in this form. It is a pretty signficant limitation for a pitiful 5 second immunity.

If I raed yuor psot croretcly, you say I dn'ot konw the daezodne is bad? I've dnoe BGs bfeore, bdudy, and I know all aubot the dezondae. Ulinke msot Hnuetrs, I am albe to keep my trgaet out of it.
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  • 335. Re: Upcoming Hhunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:02:27 AM PST
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I can just see poor GC taking a swig of Whiskey or whatever his drink of choice is, letting out a deep, deep sigh and then hitting post when he put this bad boy out for public consumption. Overall, can't really disagree with much. I am still in some lvl 70 purples with a mix of Wrath Blues (no heroics) and still smoking people on the DPS meters so nerfs were not unexpected.

Deterrence probably should be 360. A reflection (versus the deflection) of damage would be pretty sweet but probably unlikely.

I really like the over 30 sec talents off of GCD, the kill shot reduced time and the spirit strike to work better (since I am one of the lucky sob's that tamed loque'whatevertherestofhisnameis).

One request - Invisible traps please. While not a straight up buff to PvP, it is a new tool that might actually distract enough hunters to quite the forums down for like a minute or so...
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  • 336. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:02:30 AM PST
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Q u o t e:

4. Where are the pvp buffs? Rogues got dismantle, where's the fking hunter love? The least you could have done is made deterrence a 5 second cheat death.


I laughed so hard I almost cried. YES LETS GIVE HUNTERS A 5 SECOND CHEAT DEATH WHEN THE ROGUE ONE IS ONLY 3 SECONDS!

THAT SOUNDS AMAZING!
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  • 337. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:02:34 AM PST
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I may be the only person running with Glyph of Aspect of the Monkey, but I found this to be incredibly useful in PVE with the old deterrence. Dragonhawk+Deterrence+Glyph+Distracting Shot = kiting master.

The new one, not so much. Will mobs ignore me, the way they do with other immunities?
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  • 338. Re: Upcoming Hunter Changes   12/09/2008 11:02:37 AM PST
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Q u o t e:
I did say these are not all the hunter changes we're working on. Some we haven't quite worked out yet and others (one exciting one in particular concerning ammo) won't be ready until Ulduar or so.

We think MM was too high and BM was way too high. Survival is probably a little low. We are looking at buffing Survival, possibly through Explosive Shot, but we haven't finalized that yet.

The Deterrence change is defintely something we'll need to see in action on the PTR.

I don't want to do a disservice to all the good PvP feedback by attempting to boil it down too much. However, in general a lot of hunters were concerned about being able to do damage as much as they were concerned about being able to survive damage. We don't expect the Deterrence change to solve the former problem obviously. We're still working on that one, but we wanted to go ahead and announce what changes we have now so that you guys can be chewing on them.

Nerfing classes is never fun. It means that our initial tests and estimates didn't play out in the real world, which is a failing on our part, not anything the players did wrong. While buffing is a lot more fun, we think we'd get to crazy land too quickly by trying to make current BM dps the new benchmark. That would mean touching virtually every other class and spec as well as many encounters. While it might produce more positive PR in the short-term, it's a ton more work in the long-term that we would rather spend on new content or other problem areas.

Also, the sky is not falling. We're posting here so we can get feedback. Threats of rerolling or that sort of melodrama aren't really giving us any information we need. I can understand while you might want to vent a little bit, but posts with nothing but QQ aren't helpful. :)



Okay suggestions. Announce a real 41 point suvival talent, and make the new detterence 360. Make it so we can use it while stunned. Fixed.

[ Post edited by Polarity ]

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